It's Terribly Noisy
birds singing, cat crying, cock crowing, husband snoring,
catholics saying you can't really love Christ if you don't love "The Church"
reformers saying that all of this crap i'm going through was predestined by a loving god before time began, comments on slice saying if i don't condemn what they condemn i'm a new age liberal heretic, and the song "blessed be the name of the LORD, blessed be His Holy Name - He gives and takes away, He gives and takes away, and still my heart will choose to say, Blessed be His Holy Name!
on Dawn is Coming, prose gives way to poetry...
dawn is coming - and i see lightning in the east - but I can't hear the thunder
it's too noisy - i can't hear the word of the LORD...
i think i'll be typing all day, but i don't think i'll be blogging
27 comments:
Maryellen,
You misrepresent the Reformers. No one said that your travails are predestined, but they are completely foreknown by a loving God. Otherwise there would be no hope.
whats the difference
if his will is done, then he willed it
if he knew it than he must have planned it
actually i am feeling as if there is no hope...
I like your stuff. I had someone ask me today if my theology was "reformed"--I said that it was more, "transformed", or should I say, "transforming".
You will find that I am about the "main thing" I say, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself"--everything else hangs on that. I don't know why people have to lose that perspective?
"Give up your good Christain life and follow Jesus." (quote by Garrison Keillor)
Wow, Teresa. I love this quote. Thanks for posting it on your info page.
Maryellen, I find when I am feeling hopeless, singing praises (even weakly) gives me comfort. I pray that you will exchange the stuff you're carrying for Jesus'yoke (His yoke is easy, and His burden is light...)
thanks girls,
and Chris too actually,
and who are you al-farrob from portagul???
i'm looking for ward to worship tomorrow...
thunder on the mountain
Blessed be the name of the LORD
Teresa
Who is giving up any perspective?
People tend to define loving the Lord our God and His love for us from a subjective, and therefore unbiblical perspective.
Maryellen there is always hope Romans 8:15-18
Worship will be awesome tomorrow!!
maryellen- you wrote about a bit of your catholic experience as a response on Flip's blog, you know what? The same thing happened to me!! Right before I was supposed to get confirmed, I found out why most of the people at church had stopped talking to me, and why my parents weren't allowed to come back to church (divorce). You'd never know that the people at that church had ever heard of Jesus and His love.
*hugs*
I wonder if I can relate with you... I feel anxiety, it seems, in some of the same places you do. Reformers (what the crap is "forknown," Chris p), Catholics, even some who are likeminded...pressure.
May we find rest in the one constant, the one who says it's all meaningless without love, God.
What the crap is foreknown?? Are you serious?
Does God know everythinng before it happens or not? That is foreknowledge. If He doesn't know, then He is not God.
Foreknowledge would be an attribute of one who is constant.
BTW, I am not a Reformer
As for the "love" argument.
We seem to only define what that is, based on our human standards.
How can the warm fuzzy mush we call love, be applied to the God of the universe?
Who He is, is revealed in His Word.
If God chose to give his most precious creation a free will, If God chose to know every possiblilty
with out knowing the definite, and to continually work with and through his creation as His plan was played out, does that mean God chose not to be God?
I can think of at least 3 times where God showed disappointment at how the choices of man and the darkness of their hearts grieved his heart.
The very presence of the word IF in covenant promises, seems to show that it is possible, because we are created in his image and likeness, because we don't operate like wind up toys or animals acting on instinct, it is possible for us to go against the will of God. And He is ever faithful to protect, guide and forgive.
Then God contradicts Himself constantly in His Word, and I will chuck my Bible and buy the latest tome by Deepak Chopra.
Only the repentant can confess and be forgiven, and only the saved (believers) are repentant.
God showing disappointment does not mean He did not know in advance. Everything in the Scripture is God revealing Himself to us, so it is written with that "angle" in mind. IOW the description and language is for given for us to understand. Thus we have the God is grieved references otherwise we would not know everything that God considers to be sin, unfruitful and grievous. I find no comfort in a God who is on a "learning curve".
Anyway what do we do then with Isaiah 46:8-11? Does God contradict Himself? Do the Scriptures?
Deut 29:29 was written to tell us that what HE has given to us for our understanding, is to be understood and obeyed. That verse is not a proof for murky, apophatic doctrines.
See you later!! :-)
God does not contradict himself.
We can not limit Him to our understanding of time or space or knowing.
I'll stick to my puzzel anology.
It's not that He purposely wants to confuse us or puzzel us.
It's that he wants us to dig deeper. To find the pieces that help those apparent contradictions or inconsistancies fit together.
And we can never understand His mind completely. There are some things that we must just believe because He is God and His Words are true. How can He both know and not Know. And pray changes things...
or else why pray...
he said ask, seek, knock on the door. does he love us or not.
does he just rattle our chains,
wind us and and watch us go.
he wanted children who would choose to love him,
so he gave them the choice,
he would not allow a child to be born knowing that that child was going to end up burning in an etenal hell.
there is no way that you can reconcil that with the fact that He is a loving God.
Maryellen, I have really enjoyed reading this post and the comments that have followed. I especially liked your most recent comment.
I believe that God is all knowing and that He sees and knows everything before it happens, but I believe that includes seeing the CHOICES we have made, make and are going to make. I have a hard time believing that God created us and that we are like "wind up toys." I don't believe the God I worship is a God who would create someone to go into eternal damnation. I believe he gives us the choice and can foresee the outcome based on the choices we will make. Our God is a loving God, yet a fair, just God. He will judge those who choose not to follow and seek Him out, but he doesn't pull our strings as if we were puppets.
Well, there are just a few thoughts on my mind. God Bless you all...I've enjoyed reading all of these thought provoking comments. :)
Why does everyone mistake my comments as either anti-free will, or a defense of calvinism? I am doing neither, as my purpose is always Scriptural understanding.
We make our "free choices" and God's overarching will is accomplished no matter what we do,say or choose.
Read Acts 4 the prayer for boldness, Psalm 2, Eph 1 the entire chapter, Isaiah 46:8-11 (again) and Romans 9:14-24.
My question still is ;
Is a God who allows us to choose our way into damnation, and then does nothing to alter that choice,
more, or less loving, than a God who predestines us to damnantion?
Please do not give me the God is a mystery, we will never fully understand Him, arguments.I have never claimed to know it all, or that anyone could in this life. However that is not a copout to avoid the question. This "topic" is covered in the Scriptures. So it is meant for our understanding.
God's love, and all His other attributes, are revealed in the Bible, and not through our human concepts of love.
Is the basic message of the Gospel, I'm glad to be Christian and God loves ME?
Can we separate the Gospel from the context of the Bible in its entirety?
first, the word calvanist does not appear anywhere on this blog or in the comments unless i missed it by speed reading...
and no one is accusing you Chris, not really
maybe it's because you are up against mostly women here, and God did make our hearts a little different then mens I think...
i believe in a God that does let us choose our way into damnation,
but i do not believe that he does nothing to alter that choice.
he sends us teachers, visions and dreams, he gave us his holy word, and the holy spirit is there to guide us, he told us again and again that he wants us to come home no matter what, he seeks us when we are lost, he is faithful to forgive,
agreed, we can not limit God to our understanding of love either...
but we have a pretty good definition of God's point of view on the subject in I Cor. 13.
my personal take on the subject...
Love does not damn...
Love provides a way to salvation for all...
Love does not force...
Love gives those loved a choice...
God is Love
And in the context of the whole bible, I just read deuteronomy, I am sure glad I'm a Christian and that God loves me...because outside of that good news, there is no hope.
Love does not force...
Chris P. you are hard to talk to, you get defensive very easily. I believe in this post Maryellen was just trying to be real and you gave her a very, sorry to be blunt, fake response. I agree God does know everything that happens inside and outside of time (read my blog sometime). I'm sometimes sick of hearing it as an explanation for things, it's just inadequate. Sorry if it seems like I'm attacking you. I think we agree on some strange level but I'm just more concerned with sending the right message and the right answer not always the "correct" and disected answer.
in defense of Chris, I would never call him fake.
and Wes, I love reading your site and your comments.
blessings all!
Wes
You are wrong. I am very easy to talk to, and surprisingly non-defensive. In fact my wife tells me that she can't understand how I am so unmoved by people's opinions about me, good or bad. It matters not at all what anyone thinks.
Do not mistake a calling for something else.
Maryellen I do appreciate your defense.
Perhaps one day you can tell these folks how awful I really am.
:-)
It's terribly noisy. Quite a foreshadowing in your title to the number of comments you have gotten.
Personally I have thought it the failing of way too many Christians to get caught up in the thought process of "God knew this would happen and he allowed it to." Has it ever occurred to you that foreknowledge might not mean knowing the one singular event that will occur, but rather all possible events? It seems to me that free will versus ominiscience can be explained right there.
Why do so many of you think that God's plan is mapped out to the smallest detail? Do you not think he can make his plan come to be despite you? The trouble comes from fighting him. It is equally troublesome though to expect that he will simply take care of anything without you taking a hand in it.
Just the Pagan point of view though. Feel free to discard.
Wanderer,
To address your excellent questions:
1.Has it ever occurred to you that foreknowledge might not mean knowing the one singular event that will occur, but rather all possible events? It seems to me that free will versus ominiscience can be explained right there.
Free will and omniscience are not odds and never were. The post-modern world is always looking for "tension". All things are reconciled in Christ. If God foreknows all possible events then He forenows the one that will occur. Otherwise He does not know our thoughts, as you are suggesting that He cannot know what we will choose in any given circumstance. No one can resist His will. We are not more powerful than He is. Free will does not make us gods. Romans 9:16-21
Therefore there are not "many" possible events.
(Psalm 139)
2, Why do so many of you think that God's plan is mapped out to the smallest detail?
Because He said so.
Matthew 6:7-8;Matthew 6:25-34; Matthew 10:26-31
He is the God of the minute details.
3.Do you not think he can make his plan come to be despite you? The trouble comes from fighting him.
It is equally troublesome though to expect that he will simply take care of anything without you taking a hand in it.
Exactly my point! So perform the good works that were created "before " you were, and were already waiting for you to do, which you were chosen by Him to accomplish.
Ephesians 1
Ephesians 2:8-10
dear wanderer and chris,
i agree mostly with wanderer...
i think you are still trying to limit God Chris, not fully understanding the wonderful and terrible gift he gave us when he gave us a free will...
as far as knowing our thoughts, before we think them, only as far as we would understand the thoughts of a child or a spouse that we know intimately,
he knows our nature, he knows what he created us for, he has made the way clear, he has cleared the way when we get lost or tangled up in the dark...he is ever with us, instructing, guiding protecting...
but can he look into a nursery of new borns and say...hell, hell, heaven, hell, hell...
can he knit together a child in his mother's womb, knowing full well, that not only will that child end up in hell, but will hurt countless others in the process...
of course he can...he's God and he can do anything he so chooses...
but he chose to reveal himself as a God of Love...
enough of that, enough of that...
I fail to see how my answers "limit" God and I am not "trying" to do that. Free will is not a gift. We are born with freedom to choose and we can only choose sin and death until we are born again. How is that freedom?
Does God's love cancel out His Word? The scriptures tell us that He has numbered our days, He knows all things before they happen. We do not alter the future or change God in any way, as all our choices are foreknown by Him. He is not surprised by us. Multiple choice only exists from our perspective. All history is a done deal before Him. I do not understand how the answers I supplied, directly from the Scriptures, are limiting God.
I find people shun such discussion, because they don't want to think too much. (That is a criticism being aimed at certain new music coming forth btw.)
This is why all true reformation is Word (foundational) reformation.
Free will is only free will if we can make one of two choices. If there is no possibility that we will make any but one of the choices it is not free will, it is illusion. If God knows every choice we will make ahead of time, then what we will "choose" is pre-ordained. This is not free will. If it was as such, you would have no need to suggest I do good works, since my decision to do so would only be an illusion.
This is not so. We have choices. When we make them, God knows why we made the decision. This doesn't mean he knew that we would. God knows all of the possibilities, but leaves it up to us to do as he would have us do. If we don't, he re-orchestrates so the plan can come into fruition. Your life is not being micro-managed by God. You are being watched, your deeds are being recorded, but they are your choices. True choices that none including you know for certain you will make until they are made. The only way that God could know what your decisions would be without robbing your right to free will would be if he existed completely outside of your world, such that he had no impact. If he was only an observer. He is not. God plays in the game beside you whether his presence is acknowledged or not.
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