everyone counts

Sunday, August 21, 2005

For Crying Out Loud...

now that's a funny little statement isn't it?
so early yesterday morning I went on a prayer walk. we were at an event, sort of like a camp meeting, and unless you have been to the southwest, I don't think you could imagine the vastness, the bleak beauty, or the quiet of the place I was walking in. It's not at all like a walk in the woods, or a walk along a stream or on the shore of a lake. I felt very small, and very much alone, as if I walked too far I would simply disappear.
I was having a good conversation with the Creator. The night before the pastor who preached started out asking if God had ever called us to a place, and we went thinking that we knew why we were going, only to find out that God's plan was totally different than ours. (My thoughts are not your thoughts, My ways are not your ways). He ended the evening's message with the reminder - God never forsakes His elect.
His main text was Isaiah 61. The same text that was prayed over us when we became a part of Open Bible Standard Churches. We have revisited that particular section of scripture several times since moving to this part of the world. And that chapter always brings to mind the same image, the same vision. especailly verse 4 - Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, they will raise up the former devatations and they will repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations. I read that and I see the "Mission". When we were first called to the four corners it was to pastor a small multi-cultural church on the American Indian Bible Ministries complex.
It was an old mission on the edge of Farmington, New Mexico just before the Navajo Reservation. It had been established in 1952 - the year I was born. There was no salary, and only temporary housing offered, but we believed this was where we were we meant to be. I fell inlove with the place and with the people. The church was our responsibility and the mission was under a different board, but we worked closely together. However, after 6 months that part of the adventure was over. having to leave that place was extremely painful. there was a terrible feeling of failure, rejection, betrayal and why in the world had we given up home and friends to come out here? Since then, many times, I have had a sense that we would go back there someday, and that would be the place that we were "do" Isaiah 61.
It was in my mind again yesterday morning as I walked in the desert, among the scrub oak and catus.
This spring we got scammed. Shortly after we started blogging we got an email from Sussan Chirs, a lonely widow dying of cancer, a born again Christian in a muslem country, asking for prayer - and a place to leave her large inheritance so that it could be used for God's work. Yeah, we knew it was a scam, but i wrote back. What if she really was sick and alone. At least I could offer her prayer and a word of encouragement. In four weeks time, she signed her inheritance over to us, sent us copies of legal documents and bank statements, died, and then the lawyer asked for money. We didn't send it. We had a friend very savoy in internet and international finances who exposed the scam. End of story. But for 4 weeks we enjoyed the "what if..."
We figured we would tithe to three places. Our Denomination, the church we are currently attending, and Passion Play International - a ministry we have been working very closely with for the past 8 years. We'd get our personal finances in order. And we'd try to buy the "mission"
Although some ministry is still going on there, it is not being used to it's best potential and the place is in disrepair. It's location is stratigic to this area, and there is room to expand.
But it was just a silly dream.
And so I asked the Creator, the King of the universe, just why He had brought us to this place.
and I remembered the end of the message - God will never forsake His elect. And I started to cry. Not tears of joy, I was not feeling comforted by those words that I believe the pastor to shared to give comfort and hope. I was feeling foresaken.
Logic - simple logic.
If there is an Elect few, predestined for salvation, and God never forsakes His elect, and I am forsaken, then logically it follows, I am not one of the elect. That is a very scary thought when you are alone in the desert and you are crying so hard you can't catch your breath and no one in the world even knows where you are. What was God's plan for us? Did he lead us here so that we could fail at an other ministry, so that our faith and our family could be shaken to the core, so that one of my dear sons would fall into the darkest of sins, and his brother, seeing how easy it is to fall and how christians treat other christians when someone does fall - well he just sits there reading his Bible saying, what does any of it matter...what's going to happens happens and we can't do anything about it, neither can God. This was God's predestined plan for our lives? Some plan. Sickness and death would have been better than this.
That is why I've been fighting so hard against this Sovereignty of God. This idea that God calls an elect few. That he knows. Can you see the loving Jesus of the gospels, walking through a maternity ward, looking at a bunch of new borns, saying - this one is a rapist, this one is a drug addict, this one will kill a family in a drunk driving accident - this one will die of aides - this one will molest a child - this one will be molested, this one will get into heaven, all the rest - well, have fun kids...no matter how you try to color this picture with theology and doctrine, if the reformed view of the Sovereignty of God upon which most protestant theology is based is true, then that is the god that Christians are suppposed to believe in. One who creates some people to burn in hell, and to make life hell on earth for other people while they are alive. There is no way that that is a loving god.
The best explaination of what I believe about the all knowingness of God comes from one of my commentors who is a self proclaimed pagan. Boy does that make me nervous. He wrote this:
Free will is only free will if we can make one of two choices. If there is no possibility that we will make any but one of the choices it is not free will, it is illusion. If God knows every choice we will make ahead of time, then what we will "choose" is pre-ordained. This is not free will. If it was as such, you would have no need to suggest I do good works, since my decision to do so would only be an illusion.This is not so. We have choices. When we make them, God knows why we made the decision. This doesn't mean he knew that we would. God knows all of the possibilities, but leaves it up to us to do as he would have us do. If we don't, he re-orchestrates so the plan can come into fruition. Your life is not being micro-managed by God. You are being watched, your deeds are being recorded, but they are your choices. True choices that none including you know for certain you will make until they are made. The only way that God could know what your decisions would be without robbing your right to free will would be if he existed completely outside of your world, such that he had no impact. If he was only an observer. He is not. God plays in the game beside you whether his presence is acknowledged or not.
And as I was crying out all these things, I started to come to a conclusion. If I'm not one of the elect, why am I still playing this game? If I have been forsaken by God from before time, and my destiny is hell, then whats the use? Why not just have fun for the 20 years or so that I might have left. No, why not seek out another source of power and have more than just fun, I almost had it once, before this Jesus stuff got in the way. And I've been doing the Jesus thing for 25 years and it hasn't worked...I could at least try the other way...but then every once of my self screamed NO! and no one heard me but the Creator. that conclusion is not TRUE, that is the enemy trying to finally, completely destroy me...
so i headed back to the camp, i needed a cup of coffee, i listened for a song to come into my mind,
"this is the day of your deliverance..." yeah that would be nice
i recited Matthew 6:9-13 a few times to calm me down. i could blame my red eyes on allergies, the dust out here has been really blowing.
but then, after breakfast and a good morning session, my period started (sorry guys for sharing more than you wanted to hear - but it's something no 53 year old woman should have to endure) and we left early and got a speeding ticket on the way home...
we went to bed early, and Art asked "why do we even bother?"
and I still don't know the answer.

23 comments:

Kim said...

I wish I had deep words of wisdom or theological revelation for you, but I don't. I can only say that your struggle is familiar, not only because I have had similar struggles in my faith, but because many believers I know have shared them. Gordon Atkinson references this "Dark Night of the Soul" and can list many incredible people of God who have struggled "in the desert" (for you literally and figuratively). I could argue in favor of Free Will over Pre-Ordination, but this would not help you. This is between you and God -- He knows you, He has counted the hairs on your head, You are His. He has carved you in the palm of His hand. I know you seek Him -- I know you will find comfort.

++Heavenly Father, cover Maryellen and her family with a complete bubble of protection during this time of transition and transformation. You know the plans you have for them -- Give them the Peace that passes all understanding. Breath on them, Breath of God.

Wanderer said...

My words were not intended to be such a burden on you. I think you pain yourself by taking my argument for why the "God's minute by minute plan for my life" theory doesn't hold, and re-applying it to that same theory.

You are not pre-destined for failure. You are not forsaken. You sure as hell aren't one of the "elect" because there is no such thing.

You are living your life, keeping the faith. You falter on occasion because you are human, and you let other jealous human's beat you down with their philosophy.

Remember this. During your time of ease, you don't need God's help. It is wise to be thankful, but you don't need saving from your good fortune. During the rough points, you do need that guidance. You have illustrated that this is a rough point. Stop for a moment, listen, and feel. Then tell me that you honestly feel alone. You end with a reference to Art. He is there with you. Now reach further and see that your kids are with you. Then reach further and see the aide those who post have offered, the good will and prayers they send to you.

Even if you stop there, see what God has provided for support. Look at all of those who suffer without friends or family to guide them and tell me you are truly forsaken. Stand out there in the open as you did today, and look at the network you have around you. Then, out of your own strength, drop the sorrow for long enough to say a prayer of thanks that you haven't been abandoned in your time of need. Then reflect back on your faith. Reflect on the words God has spoken to you, without the corruption of others' interpretations.

Your life isn't roses, but it is beautiful. Be thankful. Accept the assistance of those around you, and assist those that you can.

Yes, I know this is harsh, but sometimes someone has to stand up and scream what you already know to remind you.

You are blessed. You are loved. Walk in peace.

Arthur Brokop II said...

Wanderer, that was not harsh and your words did not burden me...
you are wise beyond your years, make sure you let me know when that baby of yours makes her grand entrance...blessings on you and martha!

Arthur Brokop II said...

oh, yeah and thanks Kim, Wanderer is right...i need to remember to give thanks for the people who encourage me on this site...blessings, Pastor/husband Art apprecitated your prayer too.

Chris P. said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Arthur Brokop II said...

Chris, dear friend, I kept your "study" on my email, but deleted it from this post. You know my heart and my opinion about the theological issue of the elect...and actually there were several notable theologians, and church fathers, and jewish rabbis who would agree more with Wanderer and Me than with the reformed explaination of the scriptures that you noted.
When we sang, "let the elect cry out" all I could think of was the jews who had been driven out of their homes in Gaza. "how long Lord, til you avenge them? And you guys, stop using the word "hell" unless you are talking about hell...

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry Mary Ellen, I don't mean to confuse you because all of us have to question this and other things of God--God wants us to and when we cry out to Him, he gives us answers. I know what we were taught and I reject that "in part". I will have to say that I agree more with with your pagan friend. I think sometimes we can become lost in what we "think we know" and then God shows us something TOTALLY different. I wrote about this long ago. We have choices and God knows the choices. I beleive even that he may know which choice we will make, but I don't think that, that means that He makes them for us. Can we be "chosen" and never accept that we were chosen? I came to the conclusion that it does not really matter what we think. I never should have begun this discussion--it is pointless! You might want to rent Bonhoeffer, link on my site. Bonhoeffer was the first to say that when you look at your Bible, God is speaking to YOU, they are not just words on a page, they are living and breathing within YOU--God speaks to us through His Holy Spirit and so what is God telling YOU? We need to ask that. Bonhoeffer organized and attempt on Hitler. Would all "good" Christians tell him that was the "right" thing to do--he had very few who would follow him and were willing to do the right thing. Don't listen to what others say, but what YOU know God has spoken to YOU--if He hasn't, ask Him. I think that it is how we look at it. I think that God is fully in control, but is He involved in EVERY choice we make. Does He cause us to sin? Of course not! Does he know that we will make wrong choices, yes. Will he intervene sometimes, yes. Does he always, no. He has the big picture but I don't like to look at it as "HE" has chosen, but that He knows "WHO" will "Choose". He did not create us to be robots, but wanted us to "choose" to love him. We would not want someone to be forced to love us, because it would not be the same as allowing them to make the choice to because of who you were--with all your flaws included--that is un-conditional love--the LOVE of God for us. Is is love for parents to make choices for our children? Some may think so. I don't think so. If they make a mess, they make a mess-that is how they learn. Do we guide them and counsel them and teach them? Yes, but at some point, they have to be allowed to screw up, even if it causes jail, death...or whatever--I'm speaking from experience. It seems that you have had that experience as well--maybe that is why we see it differently. It is silly to say that our experiences have nothing to do with how God speaks to us. Sorry this is so long--I won't be touching on this on my blog for quite awhile. Keep loving Him and he'll show you--and me too!

Chris P. said...

So am I being censored?
What was wrong with the comment?

Arthur Brokop II said...

Chris, I just didn't think that Wanderer needed a bible study, it may be useful to me as I explore further the issue so I kept it, but at this point in his spiritual walk quoting greek, hebrew, and bible verses would be about as useful to him as giving him definitions from the webster dictionary or world book encycopedia.
am I wrong Wanderer?

Chris P. said...

I would say he knows more about the Bible than most of the folks who comment here. Do we decide who can meat and who cannot?

Arthur Brokop II said...

ok, fine chris - but it is more likely that Wanderer is a spiritual vegitarian...anyway, here is your deleted comment back...

Wanderer,
FYI !!

From the Greek:
1588 // eklektov // eklektos // ek-lek-tos' //

from 1586 ; TDNT - 4:181,505; adj

AV - elect 16, chosen 7; 23

1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God,
1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ
1a1a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
1a2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the
most exalted office conceivable
1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class,
excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual
Christians

1. Matthew 24:22
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matthew 24:21-23 (in Context)
2. Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:23-25 (in Context)
3. Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:30-32 (in Context)
4. Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
Mark 13:19-21 (in Context)
5. Mark 13:22
False christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:21-23 (in Context)
6. Mark 13:27
And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
Mark 13:26-28 (in Context)
7. Luke 18:7
And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
Luke 18:6-8 (in Context)
8. Romans 8:33
Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Romans 8:32-34 (in Context)
9. Romans 9:11
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call--
Romans 9:10-12 (in Context)
10. Romans 11:7
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Romans 11:6-8 (in Context)
11. Romans 11:28
As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Romans 11:27-29 (in Context)
12. 1 Timothy 5:21
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
1 Timothy 5:20-22 (in Context)
13. 2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:9-11 (in Context)
14. Titus 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,
Titus 1:1-3 (in Context)
15. 1 Peter 1:1
[ Greeting ] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1 Peter 1:1-3 (in Context)
16. 2 Peter 1:3
[ Make Your Calling and Election Sure ] His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
2 Peter 1:2-4 (in Context)
17. 2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2 Peter 1:9-11 (in Context)
18. 2 John 1:1
[ Greeting ] The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,
2 John 1:1-3 (in Context)
19. 2 John 1:13
The children of your elect sister greet you.
2 John 1:12-14 (in Context)

There sure as HELL is such a thing. :-)

Chris P. said...

This is your blog and you can do what you want. I was just asking for an explanation, since I did not view it as an inflammatory or nasty comment. I wasn't asking for you to put it back.

Digger said...

maryellen,
Your posts are a ministry in and of themselves. Your ability to paint visual and emotional landscapes with words are one of your gifts, and the fact that you attract comments from the well of wisdom (specifically wanderer) allows others to come into contact with ideas that might not be spoken loudly and often from the pulpit.
Some concepts will invite discussion and perhaps controversey, but isn't that Gods way of moving us forward?
Wanderer's explanation of Free Will is one that I will save and continue to contemplate until I feel I can explain it as effectively as he.
I also appreciate chris p's comments. They add the shadow and shading required to give depth to the overall picture (and I mean that in a positive way, chris).
Keep on keeping on, maryellen. You are a gem.

Arthur Brokop II said...

The Wanderer is a daddy now! His mother-in-law told me. Blessings on the little family. Blessings in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I am feeling very peaceful just now, after a frustrating morning of running around and accomplishing nothing.
The only thing that matters is faith working through love! Without Love nothing else matters.
Argue on and I will love on and we'll see who reaches the finish line first.

Wanderer said...

I appreciate the quotes, Chip. I hope I don't greatly offend you in saying that MaryEllen was right. I was basically familiar with the background of the terminology. It has, however, always been my opinion that the "elect", even in the bible have been referred to as such for the same reason the "God of Abraham" referred to his "chosen people." To illustrate that they were loved. Through the ages it has taken on a whole new meaning amongst the people that label themselves as such to hold themselves up as better than the alternative. God does not love the man who spends his whole life in faithful worship any more than the man who dies cursing God and all of his creation. God is a parent, such distinction would be impossible. The "elect" are those who are fortunate enough to know God in one of his forms and to commune with him. Nothing more. It is a useless title to assist human ego's.

Arthur Brokop II said...

The elect, the chosen, are crying out for their homes lost in Gaza. Innocent children are scared by the storms in Florida, wars and rumors of wars. there is a violent storm raging, a storm in the heavenlies, How Long Lord! Grace - Justice - Mercy!

Arthur Brokop II said...

Thanks hun...did you post that on Chris's too? I do wish you had let me proof read it first...but inspite of the dsylexic spelling typos, the point is made...love ya

Wanderer said...

Thank you, Pastor Art. A very enlightening description. I am glad to see that others over time with further study into it have a close understanding to mine. As there are path differences, the interpretation will be a little more academic on my part. Still I am glad to see that I am not the first to formulate such thought processes. Just because others thought it first doesn't make it right, but I have found that I am just uncreative enough that if it hasn't been thought of by another first, it is probably wrong. I am always thankful to find that amongst those who like to bash heads in there are those who also like to study and to teach what they have learned in the hopes of learning from others.

(By the way, lest someone flame up, the last was not an attack on anyone here but more a reference to my personal life.)

Chris P. said...

Of course I don't study. I am always wrong, and need correction. I am not a Greek-Hebrew scholar. I also gather, neither are Dr. Strong or any of the Reformers.
I must use the only bad translation of the Bible btw.

All references I supplied use ekklekta as elect. My point to Wanderer is the elct exist as he stated there is no such thing.

Arthur Brokop II said...

Chris, no one could ever honestly accuse you of not studying, or of not knowing what you are talking (blogging) about. There are just people out here who do not agree with some of the conclusions you make. No, it's not your conclusions personally...its as I have said, alot lately, there are legitimate sincere Biblical scholars who do not agree on some basic doctrines, my main interest these days, weslyan vs calvinism...
on my can of worms post you mention that the canon of the scripture has been intact since the reformers...what about before that? Sola Scriptura?
besides, I thought you were on vacation!

Wanderer said...

Chris - My references to "further study" were comparing Pastor Art to me, not to you. I was acknowledging, and will again acknowledge, that the two of you and many others have much more experience on the subject than I do.

As for myself, my point was never that the bible didn't mention the elect. It was that I was refuting most such statements in the bible, at least referenced as many interpret. Lest I drag you too far into a fruitless argument, let me remind you that I am one of the few in these conversations that gives little weight to the argument that the bible says it is so. No insult to the rest of you. Our paths are different.

I try to avoid blatantly doing so, but it is good for all, most importantly MaryEllen, to remember that while I try to base my position in terms of the religion you all share, my difference in beliefs does occasionally leak through.

Arthur Brokop II said...

and dear wanderer, i would assure you that although theoLogically we disagree, and I am nothing less than a devote, born again follower of Jesus Christ...nothing more...I always welcome your comments, insights, and words of wisdom, which sometimes seem very Christ like to me.

Kim said...

Wow! It's really hard to keep up with you guys! Pastor Art, I appreciate all the references you posted here. I really need to take time to read them, and I'm running out today. Thank you. A brief review seems to tell me that your data supports what I believe to be true. I've visited your site, btw, and will continue -- if only I had more time to read it all!!