everyone counts

Tuesday, June 06, 2006

another word on Romans 1

I re-read Romans 1 in the NIV and NAS.
I remember being very interested, many years ago, at the italized words, and that they did not actually appear in the original, but were inserted to make the sentence more grammatcially correct. Actually Ancient Hebrew and Ancient Greek are languages with very specific and unique grammar rules, much different than any of the modern languages, especially English.
A misplaced or misused article, a misunderstood tense, can alter the meaning of a sentence. Jots and Tittles were very important when a scribe did his work.
One serious example of how modern translators can manipulate the meaning of a section of scripture, that has nothing to do with predestination or election is how the word for parent is used. People who, back in the mid-80s, wanted to make God and His Word gender neutral rightly pointed out that the Greek word for father is the same word used for mother. They wrongly concluded that therefore we could legitimately say "Our Mother, instead of Our Father, or at least, Our Divine Parent. The word itself is gender neutral, but the articles used specify the male parent.
What I've discovered in recent studies as well as what I learned when I was at Roberts Wesleyan College, taking as many Bible Courses as I could fit into my schedule...indicates that when it came to choosing what form of the word, what tense, what article in English Translations, when there were many choices, the accepted doctrine affected that choice. You can even see it when you look at some of the words in Strong's concordance. The influence of the Classical Greek belief in Destiny and Fatalism could well have affected Augustine's doctrine. As could his outspoken hatred for Jews could have affectied Luther's.
What I pointed out in my last post was that while Romans 1 is often used as a point for and against the salvation of people who have never heard...I am more interested in considering just what Creation tells us about the nature of God. Today I read the chapter just to see exactly where it says no man ever does good or ever turns to God, or how ever it was put by one of my comments. Here are my observations. Was Paul called an apostle, or called to be an apostle?
Those little italized words can make a difference in what he was saying about himself. But that isn't such an important point. I see that Paul is talking to those who have already have faith, but is planning on coming and preaching the gospel to them. What gospel if they are already saved by faith? I read that the wrath of God is agains all ungodliness, not all men because all men are ungodly. Infact, as I read about those who professed to be wise, became fools, I do not see that that is all men, but rather some "they" and "them" not you all.
They reject and even try to supress the truth. So God turns them over to live the consequences of their ungodly, anit-godly choices.
Paul, in his writings seems to have 2 main themes. Gentiles can be saved without submitting to Jewish customs or rituals - so don't let them try to circumsise you. Just because you are saved by grace, not being under the law does not give you license to do what ever you want. Salvation is a gift, but one that requires the obedience that comes from faith.

19 comments:

Chris P. said...

Romans 3:
"9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

Paul is quoting from
Psalms 14-36-53-59-104-107
Proverbs 1:16
Isaiah 59:7-8

I would say that is a lot of Scripture that says no one seeks God. Romans 1 is never exegeted in its entire context. Paul isn't saying one thing, and then contradicting hinself later.
Chapters 1 and 2 were written to tell us that ALL men are without excuse period, either Jew or gentile.
There is no pre-disposition to salvation or as one emergent type put it, a "pre-christian" since such terminology suggests that the uniiversalists are right.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (the entire verse) says that while God may have put a longing for the eternal in the hearts of men, He did it in such a way that we could not find Him,or understand Him on our own. It is not by our works lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-10
Everything is for God's glory, for Himself alone. The fact that He loves us, and all of His creation is secondary to the sovereignty of the self-existing eternal one. The grace of God is that He calls us even though He does not need us. Of course this is easty to argue against if the basis of the argument is that I am using one of the reformation-flawed translations.
Who has the original texts anyway?
I believe in a completely omniscient God who was not "surprised" by Luther and the reformers, or anything else that has ever happened btw.

Arthur Brokop II said...

I say there are a lot of verses that say that man does, and is created to seek God. But then again, we have always disagreed on this topic. That's ok with me. A lot of people think my point of view is wrong, but it is what Jesus thinks of me that matters, and I am convinced of His love. I pray for wisdom, I pray for truth, and He answers my prayers. Mercy Triumphs over justice, Jesus triumphs over doctrine.

Chris P. said...

"I say there are a lot of verses that say that man does, and is created to seek God. But then again, we have always disagreed on this topic."

So the Bible contradicts itself?


"Jesus triumphs over doctrine."

What does that mean? Can Christ who is the Word made flesh, be separated from the written Word?
John 5:37-47
I think that Jesus believed sound doctrine was/is important.

Wanderer said...

"'I say there are a lot of verses that say that man does, and is created to seek God. But then again, we have always disagreed on this topic.'

So the Bible contradicts itself?"


No, Chris. Lets look at conversation 101. This doesn't say the bible contradicts itself, this says that the two of you disagree with regarding what the bible says. Lets try not to accuse people of saying things they didn't. It makes us look foolish. We've discussed this.

"'Jesus triumphs over doctrine.'

What does that mean?"


Um, didn't Jesus explain the fallacies of standing doctrine as held by men who opposed him while he was wandering about on earth? What does this mean? As a preacher you surely must understand this concept, otherwise Jesus' coming would be pointless.

"I think that Jesus believed sound doctrine was/is important."

Borrowing a page from your book, I would have to request you present verses to support this thought, rather than expect us to just go along with what you "think".

Chris P. said...

Wanderer
I provided ample verses from Scripture here. No one else has, yet.
In my first comment I took the text verbatim from Scripture wich clearly states that men do not seek God. Maryellen said that there is Scripture that says otherwise. She offered none here. So based on her "opinion" the Bible must contradict itself.
Conversation 101 would dictate that one must listen to and refer to all the conversation.
Jesus did not say that doctrine was or is bad in itself. He was rebuking the pharisees for adding to or misinterpreting the Scriptures. How many ways can one misinterpret the words "no man seeks God, no not one"?
I left John 5:37-47 as proof of what Jesus thought of the Scriptures. Why don't you read the Scriptures cited here instead of rewriting the comments?
BTW Jesus came to bring to glory all that the Father has given Him, not to triumph over doctrine. He will return to administer final justice to all men. That is not all He did or will do, but that is the foundation.
As for my preaching I suppose that you would have to har it first in order to render judgement on that. I do my utmost to allow the Holy Spirit and not my opinions or emotions, to lead my scripture study.

Arthur Brokop II said...

Chris, my archieves are full of verses that support my point of view. Remember that I don't like to play the "i have more verses than you" game. Also remember that the "name it - claim it" preachers have dozens of scripture to support their beliefs.
I have also said else where, that when the Bible seems to contradict itself, and it does...that it is just our call to go deeper in.
I was surprised the the rally call "Scripture interprets Scripture" was not exactly in the Bible. But it's a good theory.

Chris P. said...

2 Peter 1:
19And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


I don't play the I have more Scriptures than you game. I am asking, what do all the Scriptures actually say?
The Bible does not contradict itself. It is irrelevant that it seems to us to be that way.
I never said that you didn't have verses. I said that they were not presented here in theses specific posts or comments.

Wanderer said...

Chris P -
"I never said that you didn't have verses. I said that they were not presented here in theses specific posts or comments."

Odd that you tell me to listen to the whole conversation, but then can't be bothered to recall the "entire conversation" as it stretches outside this particular page.

"Jesus did not say that doctrine was or is bad in itself. He was rebuking the pharisees for adding to or misinterpreting the Scriptures."

Good point, neither has anybody else here that I have seen.

"How many ways can one misinterpret the words 'no man seeks God, no not one'?"

I sure hope you actually wanted an answer to this question, because I have one. Let's see. One interpretation states that no human being seeks God for any reason, regardless of influence. One interpretation could claim this refers only to one gender, and shows that women are more godly. One interpretation could take into account the writer and say that it reads, "Paul thinks that..."

To get a better idea, it would make sense to look at the entire context. By this I mean not only the letter itself but the entire context, including the scripture that he based his writings on. The whole bible rather than one book. Odd, isn't that where MaryEllen was going with this?

"Why don't you read the Scriptures cited here instead of rewriting the comments?"

Rewriting the comments? No, I just added to them. Don't worry, I have MaryEllen's permission to do so. And I did read the scriptures you quoted. You seem to confuse me not giving them the same weight as you do with not having read them.

"As for my preaching I suppose that you would have to har it first in order to render judgement on that."

Seems a bit of a non-sequitor, since I have done no such thing. I merely drew a connection to help you understand what I was saying. Should I apologize for giving you credit?

"The Bible does not contradict itself. It is irrelevant that it seems to us to be that way."

It is irrelevant that it seems to us to contradict itself? Absurd. We have to understand a teaching in order to follow it. You can't follow directions until you know what the directions say. Even if it is our failings that make it seem to contradict itself, the fact that it seems to is far from irrelevant. It is of dire consequence.

Arthur Brokop II said...

and wanderer, an even better approach would be to go back to the Psalm from which Paul is quoting when he says this...and read the whole Psalm (14). Paul actually took verses from psalm 14:1-3, Psalm 53:1-3, and Ecclesiastes 7:29 in this section. Sounds like a reading assignment to me.
Chris asks what do the scriptures actually say? Back to one of my all time favorites. Can you guess?
I like to go back to the beginning:
Genesis 6:5-7. Can you read those words and accept what they actually say without explaining them in such a way that they fit into some doctrine or other? Do they somehow contradict what the Bible says elsewhere? Or do they contradict an acceptable doctrine?
Is the apparent contradiction irrelevant?
Remember Faith comes from Hearing.
Faith saves but faith withtout works is dead. We're talking faith here and Jesus, not doctrine. All doctrine means is teachings. There are a lot of doctrines surrounding the Bible. There has been ever since the first section - the Torah was written.

Chris P. said...

Wanderer
You and I do not give the same weight to the Scriptures. You are right in saying that. Therefore our "discussion" is a moot point. Understanding of the Scriptures is for those who believe and are filled with the Holy Spirit. You by your own admission are not a believer. You do not believe in their infallibility. However belief or unbelief does not make it so.

The Hebrew for man is the word "adam" it is used over 500 times to mean all of mankind. Therefore your suppositions are void. It is not about women or one man. Paul is not giving an opinion. He is writing the infallible God breathed Word.

The hebrew word for "one" as in "no not one does good" is "echad" which is commonly used as term for the unity or oneness which means mankind as a whole.
Therefore, NO ONE SEEKS GOD of their own volition.
There is way too much other Scripture to list here that points to this.
Maryellen,
Paul put the verses together in Romans so if it is taken out of context then blame him which woukld mean that Paul then does not belong in an infallible, inerrant book. Since the Bible does not contradict itself, we can safely assume that Paul/Romans is saying that no man seeks God.

As for the Genesis reference. That verse does not prove that God had no foreknowledge or changed His mind about anything.
For example;
If a General orders his army into a battle knowing full well that the outcome will go badly, and many men will be killed, (this is all too common in warfare) and he still orders the attack, would he not be grieved anyway that it happened, even though he already knew what would happen? God foreknew and it grieved Him anyway.

The Bible is doctrine. The assumption that all doctrine is man made is erroneous. Read the Word for what it says.
You cannot seperate Jesus ,the WORD from the Word. Seems to me I remember Pastror Art saying that once.
Jesus is the doctrine of the Scripture made flesh.

Arthur Brokop II said...

I will surely continue to read the Word for what it says.
God says in Genesis 6 that He is grieved in His heart that He created Man and will destroy man. But Noah found grace in His eyes.
I'm not going to look for it right now, but there is an account of a King that is told through a prophet that His illness is going to kill him. It is a Word from the LORD. Then after the prophet leaves, the king cries on his bed to the LORD to please spare his life, and so God sends back the prophet to tell him that because of His prayer God will heal him.
Scripture says God said this will kill you. And then God says, ok I'll heal you. Because of the King's prayer, God changed His mind. Or else, God was just manipulating the situation, and knew all along that the King would live, and just decided to rattle his chains. In other words, the first "Thus says the LORD" was really a lie, because God knew this illness wasn't going to be fatal.
Is it possible to conjur up the dead? The Bible says it is. The witch of Endor did. It is possible, we just aren't supposed to do it.
I'm moving on to Acts 17 now.

Chris P. said...

All the Bible is the revelation of God written to us and for us. God wnated to move the King to repentance and the King repented. This in no way suggests that God did not originally plan this all along. God's intent is for us to understand Him and His plan. Therefore God elicits from us the confession that he is sovereign in every situation. Jesus did the same with the Canaaanite woman when she uttered the words that even the dogs get the scraps. Please, there is nothing that the triune God does not know or foreknow. If he does not have complete foreknowledge, then I would say that He is abnout 300 years behind cleaning up after us having "surprised" Him.
How could a predestined plan exist if hundreds or perhaps thousands at one time are throwing it off course with their actions that God did not foreknow? He would be constantly putting out fires and constantly changing plans. How could there be a predetermined day when all this ends and Jesus returns if our actions are always altering the schedule?
Why does a totally sovereign God bother you so much?

Arthur Brokop II said...

He is the King of Kings and the LORD of Lords. That does not bother me at all.

Arthur Brokop II said...

also, Chris
2 Kings 20:1 and following.
The King did not repent as you indicated, rather he cried out to the LORD saying how good he had been all his life.
God is LOVE and in Him is no darkness or deciet. His Mercy and Lovingkindness endures forever.
He is a convenant making and keeping God. He made us to know, love, serve Him and calls us to love and serve each other.

Wanderer said...

Chris P. - Our discussion is not a "moot point". Anytime I make you look back to your faith, I do you a favor. Every time you expound on your interpretations you potentially do me a favor, presuming some highly unlikely scenario in which you convince me.

"The Hebrew for man is the word "adam" it is used over 500 times to mean all of mankind. Therefore your suppositions are void."

Amazingly enough, at first glance I had thought you had managed to misinterpret your own original question. Then I realized that was arrogant, and that your original question was probably just rhetorical and my response misunderstood. You asked how many ways the statement you made could be interpreted. You did not mention context. If you recall, I already said every verse requires the context of the entire book. Therefore, at face value of how the statement you placed in quotes could be interpreted, I answered. I believe the answers I gave demonstrated the ability in the thousands of lines in there for people to do the same in other areas as well.

"Paul put the verses together in Romans so if it is taken out of context then blame him which woukld mean that Paul then does not belong in an infallible, inerrant book."

Again explain to me that your claim that Paul could not be to blame, otherwise he doesn't belong in an infallible book works exactly. I am reading a worship of this man here again.

"Since the Bible does not contradict itself, we can safely assume that Paul/Romans is saying that no man seeks God."

First, we have a straw man argument. "Since the bible does not contradict itself" (expected to simply be held without supporting evidence) "Then we can assume Paul is saying..." This is where the second problem comes in. You have a non-sequitor here. Paul could not be saying anything else in a non-contradictory fashion?

Since he is quoting the other verses in question, it is obvious there is no contradiction, as we would interpret the identical verses identically.

BTW, I did MaryEllen's homework assignment. Psalm 14 and 53 look an awful lot like they are referring to a set moment in time, much like pre-flood, as opposed to a permanent state of affairs. Ecclesiastes 7:29 says, "This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes." If God made man upright, is he not then potentially capable of looking to God, as an upright man would do?

Wanderer said...

So the statement, then, is that we are not what God made us to be?

Chris P. said...

Gee I thought crying out to God is repentance. Silly me!

He is the totally omniscient/orescient, omnipotent and omnipresent Lord of Lords.

The Scriptures are inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Paul a fallible man was used by God to write His infallible Word. He is one among many so used.
I worship the true Author and not Paul or the book. The Bible holds authority even over those who do not believe it.

As for the Psalms, Paul quoted them in Romans 3, so what all are saying here is that Paul is only referring to a specific time which occurred centuries before he wrote the letter. This would then make Paul's point moot, and the letter completely useless to the Church of today. Why can't anybody read what is actually on the page. The fact that you are reading the Psalms alone, and ignoring how Paul utilized the Scriptures in his letter says a lot.

Men may seek a righteousness or a god. They do not seek Yahweh. That is the point of all these Scripturs.

The Fall of man was and is complete. It was not a stumble. Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. Jesus, who was begotten not made having already existed with the Father and the Spirit is, according to Colossians, the "express image" of The Father and the "fullness of the God head dwells in Him completely".
There is a huge difference there. We were dommed from the start, so to speak. Predestination?? (not 5 point calvinism)

God did not create us because He was lonely or bored. We are created for His glory and His purpose, and His plan. As Paul said, who are you oh man?? We have nothing to say about it but Holy Holy Holy!

Men seek forms of godliness, and righteousness, and holiness.
God reveals Himself to whom he wills, when He wills and makes us righteous, and holy, and gives us the faith to believe it.

Arthur Brokop II said...

really Chris, that is what you think repentance is? There was no sign of regret in the King's prayer, except regret for what was happening to him. No acknowledgement of his own sin or short coming. His prayer was one of a believer who was trying to convince God that he deserved a break. That's not repentance in my book.

Wanderer said...

Chris P. - "so what all are saying here is that Paul is only referring to a specific time which occurred centuries before he wrote the letter."

By "all" I presume you mean only yourself, since you are the only one who said this. Odd linguistic usage. Like the royal "we" gone arrogant. Nobody said this until you. What I, the only other person who brought up the specific point in time argument (but certainly not qualified to be all), said was that it looked to speak to a particular point in time. Not that they had to be the same point. Couldn't Paul have been saying, "Look, it's happening again." Also, if it is the same point, where do you get the idea that it must have passed already? Perhaps the psalms looked that far ahead. Songs do tend to be prophetic sometimes.

"The fact that you are reading the Psalms alone, and ignoring how Paul utilized the Scriptures in his letter says a lot."

I tried to address the letter, and question the absolute nature. That is when you pointed out that he was quoting the psalms and thus supporting the validity of his statement. The talk turned to psalms, so I discussed them as well. Wasn't it you who asked me to ensure I stuck with the topic?