Should Preachers Lie?
Those of you who have been reading me for any time, should know by now that I am struggling with the concept of the Sovereignty of God, the concepts of predestination and divine election, and the question of free will. My faith has been on shakey ground for about 3 years now, I sort of had a Job complex going. I believe that I have been actively seeking first the kingdom for over 25 years, and when things went terribly wrong in my family I really freaked out. I was totally unprepared for this type of crisis. Sickness and death wouldn't have been so bad. My family and I experienced shame, rejection, a sense of failure, thoughts of suicide, and it really isn't over yet.
Was this whole thing part of God's divine plan for our lives? A lot of people were hurt when this happened. Trust and Innocence and Faith all fell victim to this sin. For all the prayers, all the sacrifices, this is what we got? I've been looking for answers. In Jesus Christ Super Star (yeah I know the thought of that production makes lots of believers cringe) anyway, in that musical Judus laments to Jesus, "Your really hip on whens and hows but not so cool with whys"
In Job, God never answers that nagging why question. What would He say? "Well you see Job, the satan and I had this bet going" So forget the whys. My question lately has been, what did I do wrong? It seems that all of the answers to all of my prayers has been a solid "NO"
Ok, so I'm exaggerating a little. I've been indulging in some serious self pity, and self protecting impulses. But I've really been wondering why I should pray. And if I have been indeed praying wrong. One teacher says praying in tongues is the answer...another says praying the rosery is the key. And does God have a plan for us, a divine and perfect plan, that he will bring about no matter what...and this was his plan?????
Thats what I mean by the question Should Preachers Lie?
Today, while I was washing the mud from my object lesson away, I heard just a piece of the sermon. "God has a plan for everyone of you. A perfect plan for your lives."
Is that true? Surely, sitting in church doesn't mean that you are destined to be saved. Has a pastor ever stood infront of a congregation and preached. "Some of you were born, predestined to enter into the kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ. But some of you, actually most of you don't stand a chance. Come on up to the alter and pray the prayer. For some of you it will mean salvation. For others of you, you will just get up and walk out of this place right back into your sin. That is what you were born for. You can try to live the life if you want. People might be nice to you for a while, and the music will make you feel good. But all in all, only the elect will get in, and according to the percentages...the path is narrow and few will find it, most of you were lost before you were conceived. " How does that make any sense at all?
People are dying. Children are suffering. War is raging. Bad things happen to good people all the time. This is God's plan? Or is it the sinful nature of man out of control?
I like the picture of God in Genesis 6:5 - 6
"then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth and that every intent of the thought of his heart was only eivl continually and the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth. He was grieved in His Heart."
I like the fact that Jesus cried over Jerusalem, and wondered would there be any believers on the earth when he returned. Jesus' command was to love and to make disciples, who would love. Not mushy gushy love love love, love is all you need. But get dirty, sell your stuff, help the poor, open your doors, touch the lepers, wipe the eyes of the aides victims...that kind of love.
Well, I've rambled more here than I expected to.
For those of you who have reached this sentence, thanks for listening.
Agree or disagree. Try to set me strait. Warn me, Chastise me...I probably need it.
Blessings on those of you who bother to comment at all. I gotta go.
17 comments:
Luke 8:
4And when a great crowd was gathering and people from town after town came to him, he said in a parable: 5"A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell along the path and was trampled underfoot, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6And some fell on the rock, and as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it. 8And some fell into good soil and grew and yielded a hundredfold." As he said these things, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
9And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.' 11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12The ones along the path are those who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
I always found it interesting that Jesus told this parable when a crowd began to gather to Him. What was he saying? Also the understanding of the parables was only for those who have an ear,i.e. for those who were chosen to have them revealed to them. These are the words of the Lord, not me or any other man.
Let the pastor sow the seed, we have no idea who are the good ground. As for Satan, He's God's devil. (See book of Job and Luke 8:12 above.)
Maryellen,
I don't think you're rambling.
I've said before "questioning may be the sweetest language... especially to God."
By the way...
Chris P.,
I hope there's no hard feelings between us, I may have responded badly to you before. a couple of posts ago we kinda went back and forth. I'm sorry, I was wrong to say anything that may have been offensive.
-Wes
chris, i was thinking of that section of luke 8 when i wrote that last post...
jesus basically said, not everyone is going to get this...
is it right for a pastor to say its for everyone listening when it isn't for everyone listening...
and chris, i think you should visit wes and put in your informed 2 cents on his apologetics debate...i love to hear what you have to say, even if I don't always agree
Hi MaryEllen: Thought I'd weigh in on your post if you don't mind. First of all, my favorite gospel is Matthew 6 where Our Lord says "do not be anxious for your life.....Are not you of much more value than they?.....Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow; for tomorrow will have anxieties of its own. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble."
It sounds to me like you need a little encouragement to cope with the many difficulties in your life.
Remember that Our Lord and the Blessed Mother had the worst life (in worldly terms). They were poor, many times had no place to live, no food (remember Egypt) etc... Look at how He was put to death. If it's good enough for them, well, then it must be good enough for us!!
St. Therese said that "suffering is the very best gift He has to give us. He gives it only to His chosen friends."
St. Alphonsus said"you ought to thank God when He chastises you, for His chastisements are a proof that He loves you and receives you into the number of His children (Hebrews 12:6).
Please - every day one Hail Mary for truth. It will take 5 seconds and I promise you if you do this daily, she will show you the way.
God Love You!! (come visit me)
Bridget
I often wonder if God has a plan in the sense that we think of the term "plan." I don't think it is quite lik a "business plan" for our lives, or a script. I wonder -- does God really care if I become a teacher or a truck driver? Is his plan just that I become a disciple, committed to him and loving his children?
Chris, I believe it was the chosen 12 apostles that he explained the parable to, not the predestined elect of all time. Everyone now has the explaination to read, let them who have ears understand. perhaps, as we are about the business of making disciples, part of our job it make the soil fallow and ready to receive the seeds...sort of like feedint the starving man and he may be more likely to listen to your story...
Apostle John, I think the Lord gives us abilities and talents that he intends for us to use for Kingdom business, but not a script to follow, and if we choose unwisely, or mess up, He is always there to pick us up and point us in the right dirrection, grace - mercy
Bridget, always good to hear from you.
Maryellen,
I think that you ask very good questions. I don't think you ramble in the slightest. I think it's when we truly seek answers to our questions, that come out of our brokeness, is when God seeks us out and helps us grapple with them. I think it's healthy to have questions. It worries me when I hear Christians say that they have all of the answers and claim to be able to solve or answer anything that comes their way. God is so much bigger than us and so majestic, how can we possibly think we have all the answers about Him? Keep on asking questions and seeking out answers, but find comfort in the truths that you know.
I'm praying for you. Know that I, too, wrestle with questions every day. Hang in there and keep your eye on Your Savior. Trust. Believe. Live.
Have a great day!!!!
Wes
I am not offended at all, and never really am. I am usually the offender.
Maryellen,
Since it says disciples, and not just the twelve I don't believe we can say that He was answering only the Apostles. Either way the same thing applies. Why would it be only for them? We now have the parables and their meanings in Scripture for all to read, and there are still a whole lot of folks who don't get it.
In the parable, the sower sowed seed. There is no mention that he plowed the field. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. As I said we do not know who the good soil are.
Part of the sermon yesterday was that all of our methods do not save men, nor do they make them more susceptible to the message. Faith comes by hearing and hearing only by the Word, as man does not live by bread alone, but by every Word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.
Stephanie
Asking implies answering. Only the post modern world likes to ask questions and then gets angry when they are answered. He is not a God of confusion. No one with any sense would ever say that any one man has all the answers, but HE does. If all God does is help us grapple, then He is a weak God indeed. What is revealed by Himself, about Himself is for our knowledge and the doing of the work. No one wonder the church gets nothing done. It is not about the many men who make up the Body, it is about the one man who is the Body. We are not here to grope about finding our way. We are here to glorify God, proclaim the name of Jesus, and advance the Kingdom.
Maryellen,
When a teacher, minister, or mentor tells you that something is "your duty", please try to understand that they are not talking to you, per se, but they are talking to themselves. They have no concept of your position if this world, only of their own.
We, as humans, minister to be ministered to, heal to be healed, teach to be taught, and seek to be sought. If this concept seems difficult to grasp, that is because we are never clear about the motivations of others, only of our own.
Words are nothing more than tools.
There is no good nor bad; there only is.
It is not what happens to us, but how we respond to it that mires us in place, or allows us to move forward in knowing.
Each of us can read the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospels, and try to understand what Jesus was proposing to us, but because every human being is at a different place on their path to Glory, there is no possible way for us to completely agree on what those teachings actually mean. Eventually, we will all understand, and we will all arrive at our intended place at the right hand of God...because that is where we started, and nothing has changed except our understanding of who we really are. Those who would have you believe differently are simply talking out loud in order to better hear themselves as they strive to make sense of their own beliefs.
Every experience we have is a gift from God. How we perceive that experience and how we use it is our gift to God. If we come out the backside of an experience with a better understanding of ourselves, God is pleased at how well His/Her plan is functioning.
I Love you from the bottom of my heart, for you remind me of where I have been, and how delightful the journey ahead will be.
Sit quietly in a quiet place, and remove all worldly thoughts from your mind. When you are able to do so, you will begin to understand that all is as it should be...and you will begin to recognize that "center of all being" in things you encounter on the every day outer level of consciousness.
Those who are truly "Born Again" need never utter a word, but will be quickly recognized (as Jesus portended) by their fruits.
Dailyraed,
Is the fruit of being born again, fiding our center? You are a gnostic.
Thanks for asking, chris p.
Dailyraed,
Is the fruit of being born again, fiding our center? You are a gnostic.
Your statement at the end shows the power of a simple space to change the heart of man.
You are a gnostic.
You are agnostic.
Think of that simple space as your center...investigate it until you are as intimate with it as you are intimate with your music...then you will understand my comment, and the apparent answer to your question.
In honor of my Mother's memory, stop your slouching and put on a clean shirt.
Dailyread,
Other than your cute play on words, what would one derive from your response? I have always felt that those who are purposely cryptic are merely seeking attention.
Galatians 5:22-24
I will invetigate Christ the center for awhile.
BTW, what would you know about me and my music?
daily read, welcome to my blog...
i appreciate your comments and am looking forward to continued dialogue.
Hi maryellen
Out of respect for the comment space on your blog, I opted to send chris p. an email rather than continue to clutter up your space with our back and forth.
Your posts are absolutely wonderful, and give a glimpse into the beauty which permeates your heart...because you color your writing with your feelings and emotions...and it is easy to feel connected to the person behind the words.
cris p. obviously has a talent that he is striving mightily to expose to you and your readers. He simply needs to minimize the scripture, and show why he has chosen certain passages by sharing his thoughts and feelings about them. I think he would be a fantastic face-to-face discussion partner...but I could be wrong.
My belief that we are all connected at a spiritual level is not disputed by the core teachings of any major religion (that I am aware of) so I feel that Jesus excepted no wo/man from his teachings. As we discover our ability to create the reality that we exist in (individually), we will come to understand that our final place will be at the right hand of God as co-creators with Him/Her.
Because of the teachings of Jesus Christ, and in spite of my Church experiences, I create the reality that surrounds me every day.
I hope to some day see the smile that is emanating from your heart. Until then, I will continue to read it.
Blessings.
Before I came over here for a visit, I wrote a post and was asking the Lord if I should post it. I think that I will now. I just LOVE your heart Maryellen! You are REAL and God sees your heart too. I noticed that you were listening in on our Salvation discussion and I liked your comments, but I had no idea that you were struggling with this. I apologize for some that are narrow-minded and maybe have not experienced "true" questioning of God. Like you spoke of Job, over and over again, Job questioned "why" and his friends had wonderful answers and solutions to his problems, but they were wrong. God never really gave him an answer. Read the post that I am posting NOW--"we can't learn the answer till we learn to question". AMEN to you sister! If you ever need to just chat, e-mail me: teresaabell@sbcglobal.net Somtimes it is nice to just vent to someone who will not give you a bunch of answers that they don't have either.
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