Questions
I don't really have time for this but...
Here are a few comments, statements, questions that have come to my attention lately...
Considering John's beautiful - poetic explaination of the incarnation in John 1, and his statement in Revelation that "His name is the Word of God" could it be that the Word of God mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament is actually refering to the person - Jesus Christ?
Keep in mind that when Paul wrote to Timothy about all Scripture is God Breathed - he was talking about the Old Testament, and perhaps, he was even including everything to Second Machabees...
And is it possible for a person to be saved if that person has never heard or read any of the Bible? If we are saved by faith (the word alone is not in the orignal texts - added by Luther)
anyway, If we are saved by faith, and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (what does that little word "by" mean?) then what if someone only heard the story, and not the actual "Word of God" ie the Bible?
And if we are saved by faith alone, but Faith without works is dead, can dead faith save?
gotta go to work...good thing I only live 3 mintues away!
18 comments:
A couple of thoughts if I may.
The first "by" in Romans 10:19
means from, by, through, etc. The second "by" means on account of, through the means of, etc.
So faith comes through hearing and the hearing comes through the means of the Word of God.
Jesus told Satan, man lives by every Word that comes from the mouth of God. Why didn't He say man lives by Me, if the Word logos is only to be applied to Him?
It matters not what Luther added. What does the text say? "By faith, apart from the works of the Law." So faith by itself is all I can safely assume from the sentence.
James is talking about believers walking out their faith. That is not the same found in Romans and Eph 2:8-10. Reading the Bible is not necessarily the means of coming to saving faith although it can happen. Me for example :-) Paul said in Romans 10 how can they hear if someone doesn't go tell them? He also preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified. So the story, and the Word of God are one and the same, as far as I can tell. Jesus and the Scripture canot be separated.
The OT may be the Scriptures the apostles used, but Peter actually put Paul's letters up as Scripture also. Peter 3:15-17
Just my one and a half cents, allowing for inflation.
Hey it is hot here in Phoenix. I want to go home!
Interestingly enough, that passage from John where the author describes Jesus as the Word is strikingly similar to a passage by Plato (I belive it was in the Republic) where he speaks about the Logos (word) as a being. John may have been borrowing slightly from Plato in order to better reach his audience.
you said, "And is it possible for a person to be saved if that person has never heard or read any of the Bible?" - That's a really interesting question with a variety of answers. Some people believe you have to hear the Word (bible) in order to be saved. This would cut out the vast majority of humanity who ever lived, as they would have been beyond the scope of missions through no fault of their own. I tend to lean away from that, and believe more in accesibilism, which makes room for the salvation of the unevangelized. A great book on the subject is "Who Can be Saved?" by Dr. Terrance Theissan - it's highly readable.
BTW, I enjoy your thoughts so I added you to my list of links. Hope you don't mind!
Good questions, maryellen, and you already got some good responses. I would say the innocent cannot be condemned, so there must be other paths to revelation of the Word (Jesus Christ) other than professions of faith.
grey owl - interesting theology. I looked up the coined term "accessibilism" which led to Dr. Theissan's web page. It is a form of biblical universalism that does not rule out condemnation. A similar view is that of Keith Ward, and I would recommend "What the Bible Really Teaches" published in 2004. He presents a very similar Bible-based "universalism" (though I hate that term because of it's association with Unitarianism, and "whateverism").
ChrisP - Phoenix may be hot, but just be grateful you're not in New Orleans. Those folks need our prayers.
Thanks for the comments guys...
yes and amen as we pray for our brothers and sister in New Orleans and beyond!
I will add my prayers. My home town of Biloxi has dead in the hundreds and many of my friends are out of contact. I pray that eventually they all check in.
You ask GREAT questions! It is really good for us to ask them. My thoughts: Jesus is the Word of God, not scripture. Scripture is the words of God. As followers of Christ, the Word (Jesus) is in us as the Holy Spirit. There are those who do not have the Bible and never will, but we have His Word in us. We learn to KNOW Him and His voice. God speaks to us as individules through the Holy Spirt in different ways and only YOU may know what the Lord is saying to you. There will never be another burning bush. I personally don't think that God stops with scripture.
teresa,
Without the written word how could anyone accurately convey the Gospel?
All believers should have, and use, a Bible. Where do you get your information from?
Those who are not believers do not have Christ within. Believing comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word. According to Jesus Himself, He and the written Word cannot be separated. John 5:37-47
Yes the Holty Spirit speaks to us, but not apart from the Scriptures. Of course God does not stop with the Scriptures,but it is how He chose to reveal His plan to us. Deut 29:29
Without the witness of the Scripture, we can make up anything and call it the Holy Spirit.
You are advocating gnosticism.
Chris, without getting into a "i have more verses than you do" match...there are enough verses in the old and new testaments that would indicate that people do indeed seek God, and that they should. I know how you explain certain verses, but if you just read what they say, in context, you see that we are created with a hunger for truth, the Truth, and there have been many cases where people came to faith in Jesus before they even knew His name. And how could anyone convey the gospel without the written word?
How about the spoken word silly...
Amen Maryellen (and Teresa). How can we limit God to words on a page? Many cannot find God without the written word, but many can. This is not agnosticism. This is truth.
First off, Chris it is gnostic not "agnostic"
I am not limiting God to Words on a page. He limited His revelation of Himself to us through the Word.
Only Israel and the Church sought God. IOW, only those who already are His seek Him. Otherwise Scriptures like Psalms 14 and 53 and Romans 3 are completely contradictory to the rest of the Bible. The prophets commanded the people of God to seek Him. The rest of the world could care less, as they want anything or anyone but God to fill up their lives. Men have no hunger for Truth that can be Scripturally supported. One of the biggest doctrinal errors of the current "move of God" is the blowing off of the doctrine of original sin.
As for hearing the Word, of course it is preached according to Romans 10. However it had to be written down for each generation of believers to even know what to preach, accurately. I remember a time that I was called a false prophet for suggesting that written tradition did not always exist.
My point still remains; against what do you judge all the personal revelations of each individual, including your own, as to their validity? As I said, gnosticism.
Chris P writes: "My point still remains; against what do you judge all the personal revelations of each individual, including your own, as to their validity? As I said, gnosticism."
Why would you judge others? Where does scripture tell you to do this?
As for validity of your own revelations, ask God. He'll answer.
I don't knock reading the bible personally, although I wouldn't call it a necessity for faith. Still, reading it hundreds of times might be excessive if it is not remembered what it is. It's a good guide book. One should look at it for guidance and then commune with God out in his world to take the writings and allow him to apply them especially to our lives.
Theresa - the burning bushes are still out there. It is we that have stopped listening.
Wanderer,
we are not only called to judge by the standard of Scripture which is absolute Truth, a bit more than just a guidebook,; we are called to do something about it.
2 John
8Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
1 Cor 5:
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
1 Peter 3:
15but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;
2 Peter 1:
19And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3:
16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 4:
1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths
2 Timothy 2:
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17and their talk will spread like gangrene.
The Holy Spirit
From before the beginning of time was God, The Father, The Holy Spirit and the Son.
The Holy Spirit points the way to God, since Jesus, The Holy Spirit points the way to God through Christ.
There is a place in downtown Dallas called Thanksgiving Square. On that are versus from the Bible and words from even Indians.
The Indians often referred to The Great Spirit. That was the Holy Spirit of God before missionaries arrived. The Holy Spirit gives each person a chance to know God around the world.
Chris P -
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
Interesting. Since so much of the comments seem to be the various reasons why others are not truly of the church. Your judgement then puts them in the territory where only God is supposed to judge?
The epistles are a poor place to come up with your answers anyway. Most of the contradictions people find in the bible are found here. The authors were men. One primarily, who frequently comment on issues unsupported by the rest of the bible or the words of Jesus. So Paul calls for judgement. Support it with words from Jesus. Support it with his actions. That would mean more to me than a preacher's interpretations. If I simply acknowledge the writings of a spiritual man as given and factual you and I wouldn't be debating would we?
rg,
Romans 1 says that for the gentile/pagan world creation testifies of the creator and men refused to acknowledge/worship Him therefore they are lost and condemned. Great Spirit or not, Jesus had to be preached. Unfortunately the western missionaries decided to bring culture masquerading as Gospel.
Wanderer. The epistles are as much the inerrant, infallible, inspired, Word of God as the rest of the Bible. Your denial of that does not alter the fact. You are suggesting discarding them because men try to explain them, rather than allowing them to explain themselves.
Are you boys having fun?
Chris P.,
I never suggested discarding them. They are a perfect example of early human interpretation of God's words.
Yes, MaryEllen, I usually am having fun when involved in such debates.
Chris P--before we "had" the scriptures, how did those find God? Even when there were a few written words around, not everyone had them, they were memorized and spoken. Most could not read or write. How did they find God? How will those who maybe will never have a Bible written in their own language because their language has never been written? How do they find God? We need to learn to think with the brains that God gave us, and with our hearts--scripture is not a manual which we read like directions--it is living and breathing--somehow, Chris, I don't get that here with all of your scripture.
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