Just a Note
Because it is 12:34, and my students are testing - poor dears.
Ingrid on Slice and my hubby, Pastor Art on Temple Corners agree with each other concerning the "meaning" behind Katrina. And although I'm more merciful than prophetic or judgemental (which Prophets often are called to be) I have to agree...
This is a dark world we are living in, and these are critical times.
Lord, have mercy on the innocent, protect the people who are trying to help in this time of crisis,
and forgive those, called by Your name, for our indifference, inaction, and self-centeredness.
30 comments:
indeed, great post.
Personally, I think that what Katrina "means" is cold air mass + hot air mass = large storm. I try not to look for hidden meanings behind these things. Maybe it's global warming?
sorry, but I believe the heavens and earth declare the glory of our creator...and a rainbow is never just a rainbow, the God of Glory Thunders...we better start listening. but, it's always good to hear from you, grey owl...
blessings
Hey maryellen - I also believe the heavens and earth declare the glory of our creator - but I also believe that he created the natural world and allows it to run according to the rules he sets. Sometimes a storm is just a storm, yet at the same time it can testify to the power and glory of God. I guess I'm just not very comfortable with people trying to find reasons and meanings behind every major world event (a la Pat Robertson). I've heard plenty of folks saying that New Orleans is being punished for her sins. I think she's being punished for being built below sea level.
I suppose I would have to lean in the direction of the environmentalists on this one. We push the natural world, it pushes back. You can only dump so much filth into the oceans and sky before things get a little screwy. Still, at this time (as always) prayer is needed. Great thoughts.
From your Friendly Neighborhood Tree-Hugger.
Creation is, the way it is, because of Adam's fall. Romans 8:18-23
God could have stopped the hurricane but did not. You are preaching a form of deism.
Creation was never meant to function as it does . All the earth and those who live on it reap the consequences of sin.
All life is in the hands of the one who gives and takes it as He wills, and who will argue with Him?
We should be seeking His purpose and plan in this and not arguing over reasons and/or blame.
I don't care if you are evangelical or an environmentalist.
Grey Owl,
polluting the seas and air are just as sinful as homosexuality and fornication. sin is sin, and we have been told to be wise stewards of the world God has entrusted to us.
Chris,
all of creation is groaning for the return of Jesus and the re-creating of the heavens and the earth - yes?
The trees of the fields and the stars in the sky sing praises to their creator? yes?
The God of glory thunders, and His voice is like many waters...
If God knew, and God willed, than nature is behaving exactly as our Sovereign God planned it from the beginning. yes?
oh, yeah, and I have hugged quite a few trees in my day...
still do when no one is watching.
You have just proven my point.
All creation is waiting for the sons of God to be manifest,i.e. the second Adam and all who are in Him.
Grey Owl was saying that the hurricane is just a random act of nature. I am saying there is no such thing as ny kind of "random" act. Creation is behaving like God is allowing it, and us, to behave, Since He knows all in advance, His plan takes it all into consideration. Therefore Romans 8:28
All things are caused by God, to work for our good, i.e. those who love God because He has called them.
well Chris, we can't disagree all the time.
Chrisp - I never said that God couldn't stop the hurricane. The bible gives us plenty of examples of when God acts on nature. I'm not denying that he could do that. And I don't think I'm a deist, although I'm not sure I know what you mean. Whatever it is it sounds unsavoury.
I'm not trying to find reasons or blame for this hurricane, rather just the opposite. I'm saying that perhaps the weather acted that way because that's the way weather acts. Not random - but a system. Anyone who learns enough about it can understand that there are hot air masses, cold air masses, gulf streams and El Nino's, and when they interact they tend to have semi-predictable results. Does that make me a deist? And I guess I don't understand how mary or I have "proven" your point. Can you explain that please?
Maryellen - glad you and I agree about one thing at least - pollution is as great a sin as anything. And I'm heartened that you've hugged your share of trees - one question, though; have they hugged back?
Deism is a belief which essentially
syas that there is a benevolent force (God) who made creation, including man, and simply stays out of the way allowing us and nature to do what we will. Kind of a benign grandfather type. Many of the founding fathers were deists. A fact the Christian right doesn't wish to discuss.
Well, I don't think that's what I'm saying. I meantioned before that God can surely influence that natural order of things. But I have spent quite a bit of my time studying nature and natural science, and it seems to me that nature is a system that would work pretty well if we didn't screw it up. It is precariously balanced between predator and prey, between creature and plant, and anyone who takes a few hours to read up on naturalist studies can find out that nature is very complex. Not chaotic as it may seem to the unlearned eye. Personally, I believe that the meaning of that passage in Romans 8 - as well as that passage in Genesis 3, "Cursed is the earth because of you..." is that WE are the ones who subjigate, frustrate and destroy the earth through our sinfulness. Creation is groaning to be released from US. I'm really not sure about the belief that when Adam fell all of creation fell with him automatically, but perhaps we can agree to disagree?
I would tend to agree with you Grey Owl, things changed when Adam sinned, and then nature went through a huge change after the great flood, but since Nature doesn't have a free will, it is about doing the perfect will of the creator, except that sinful man has done some serious damage to the system. Still, I don't buy all of what the evironmentalist are saying...
used to be that such events as Katrina were called acts of God...I think thats what they are...it is not man's fault, it is God's judgement...it is also a call to His church to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the homeless.
Creation is groaning to be released from the "curse" as we are also. Re-read the passage, the whole chapter in fact. Creation is waiting for the manifestations of the Sons of God at the return of Christ, for when the Sons are set free entirely by receiving their immortal bodies, then creation knows that it is free from bondage also. Environmentalism is not the Gospel. Please, I am not saying it is ok to willfully pollute and litter the earth. However, pollution is fact of life since men will never be able to correct the wrongs that are done.
Of course Katrina is an act of God. I have never denied that. Since God willingly allowed it to strike, then it is paramount that the Church begin to seek His ways and thoughts on the matter. Creation is under bondage therefore it is not functioning in the way that it was created to by God. However He is allowing it to function in the manner that it is until all things come to pass.
All things, including us, exist for God, and His glory. He does not exist for us.
Amazing Grace anyone??
I still don't get this Sovereinty issue...this foreknowledge and predestination and divine election...
actually, I do get it, I just don't believe it.
And what I'm not getting here is
IF God knew from before time the days, seasons, times, choices, outcomes, etc then Nature is behaving exactly as God willed it from the start...This is His plan, isn't it? It is functioning the way the creator intended it to funtion when He set his whole plan into action.
But then, isn't this concept deism except that this God doesn't sound very benevolent to me...
Chrisp - I think we're saying some very similar things. Both of us agree that pollution is bad, that humanity is sinful, etc. I still think that - even after re-reading the passage as you asked me to - we are the curse upon the world. We fell, and we brought the world down with us. Creation groans to be released from the sunjigation that we brought upon it. But it is all part of God's plan, and we can trust that he will carry us through. I don't think we can save the earth either, but rather (as Tony Campolo says) we ought to live seeking justice for the world - for the poor, the downtrodden, and for the natural world we unfairly destroy, knowing that our meager efforts will be met by God's power and redemption in the final hour. As it says in rev 21:5, god is "making all things new." Or, as another translation puts it, "Remaking all things." This world will be redeemed by God, I think we agree there. You are quite right, we cannot save the world - but that doesn't mean we ought not to try!
Grey Owl
I hope Tony Campolo is not one of the "theologians" you read.
The Scriptures address issues of justice the Kingdom etc. All things must be done within the confines of the Word. We are not here to save the earth or those who inhabit it. That is God's job. We are here to receive those who He adds daily and to be the living testimony to His work.
Acts 2:42-47
Well, in a way everyone is a theologian, so... but no, I was referring to PhD-carrying theologians. And biblical studies professors, they were very helpful as well. Tony's a sociologist, and a good one.
I'm sure that we're here to "recieve" people God is adding - but how is he adding them? through the evangelism of his church. We don't save anyone, God does, but he chooses to use us to accomplish that purpose. The way you phrased it makes it sound like we're supposed to sit around and wait for people to fall into church - but that's not what you mean, I'm sure. Indeed, God will be the one to eventually save the earth. BUt what about Micah 6:8? ("Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God")? What about the other 2000 verses in the BIble where God commands his people to care for the poor and downtrodden? I see environmentalists as trying hard to live up to the command to be stewards of the earth. And I applaud that. Just because I know that ultimately only God can do any good doesn't mean I'm going to buy a Hummer and vote against the Kyoto accord. Do we really want to be making things worse? I think that attitudes like that are the reason we're in this mess in the first place.
Sin is why we are in the mess we are in. All things are happening just as they should. It's about God and His glory, not us. I never suggested sitting around. We are to live and preach the Word nothing else. The church pulpits are now full of psychologists, historians, sociologists, and all the other "scholars" of the day. Incredibly there is a dearth of those who know and preach Scripture. Ah but I forgot, that's just interpretation. Who can really understand anything? My God the post-modern poison is deadly.
Buying an Escort and preaching the Kyoto accords, will save nothing, let alone the earth.
I know many psychologists, sociologists, and historians who know and preach scripture. I'll agree that some don't, just like some pastors don't. That's a sin issue, not a social science issue. And if buying an escort and the kyoto accord will make things even a little better, then why not? Shouldn't we be trying to be responsible stewards even now?
As far as interpretation goes, yes, it is an issue. And I'm not about to say that there is not real meaning behind scripture, or that we can't know what the bible means. What I will say is that the interpretation of scripture is a complex process. Sure, luther was right and everyone should be able to read/comprehend the bible. But it's really freaking complicated! There's things like historical context and original languages to think about, authorship issues, plus literary devices and sarcasm and stories written as illustrations and not necessarily fact and all kinds of stuff. The bible is God-breathed, useful for teaching rebuking etc. But that doesn't mean we've got it all figured out. And there are some non-negotiables, but there is much for which the interpretation is uncertain. It could mean one thing, it could mean another. And we may never know this side of heaven. What's that famous quote? "In necessary things, unity; in doubtful things, liberty; in all things, charity." Good advice, IMHO. Not post-modern poison - as far as post-modernism goes, I couldn't care less - but genuine humility at our ability/extent to understand the mysteries of God. Humility is good, right chrisp?
really good comments Grey Owl, keep them coming...love to hear from the northen branch of the family...
Humility is wonderful. :-)
However let's look at an oft quoted verse these days. I'll use the KJV
Deu 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Now many interpret this to mean that there are things we just don't know, and most likely never will know. I agree. The secret things are the Lord's, but what about what has been revealed? According to this verse, and this is a rather starightforward sentence, the revealed things are for us and succeeding generations so that we may live according to God's parameters. What are the "revealed" things, and where are they found? Only in the Scriptures. So if we are not able to understand and agree on Scripture then we are complete failures in our walk.
You said,
"There's things like historical context and original languages to think about, authorship issues, plus literary devices and sarcasm and stories written as illustrations and not necessarily fact and all kinds of stuff. The bible is God-breathed, useful for teaching rebuking etc. But that doesn't mean we've got it all figured out. And there are some non-negotiables, but there is much for which the interpretation is uncertain. It could mean one thing, it could mean another"
So without the "experts" actually telling us what it really means we can never know. I saw no mention of the Holy Spirit in your comment.
So pity the poor newly converted babe in Christ. There is no potential at all that he might understand.
I may as well join Bridget, Broadhead, Pope Felix and all the other RC/ dark ages throwbacks and let the magesterial elite interpret the Word for me.
We are supposed to live out what we have been given. If we can't ever know it this side of Heaven then how can we live it? All the Scriptures have been given for our understanding.
To deny that we can know is a denial of the revelation He has given us and the understanding He gives through His Holy Spirit. In short it is a denial of God.
If we have to be language experts, and sociologists etc to understand the Bible, then God is most surely a cheat.
1 John 2:27
chris, i had to smile when I read the beginning of your last remark:
humility is wonderful...but
Two things - in Deut. 29:29 what was Moses talking about? Up to that point, all that had been revealed was the Torah - granted, Jesus said that we couldn't understand or believe in Him if we didn't believe in what Moses wrote, and ofcourse Scripture transends time, so I guess we could stretch it to include the whole of God's revelation - which wasn't complete until what? 2000 years after Moses wrote those words. And please relate those words to when Paul talks about we all look at things through a dark mirror now, but in the end everything will be clear.
oops, i was wrong, chris didn't say "humility is great but..." He said "humility is great - however..."
I don't think I'm going to have much free time today in work, but I'm bringing my study Bible, just in case...
1 Cor 13:
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So we know in part and prophesy in part, but then we shall know fully.
We shall know fully when He comes, and we are with Him forever, as John says "we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
Paul is saying the exact same thing as Moses. What we know we know, though it is not a knowing of everything.
If we claim an understanding of Scriptures we are called arrogant and prideful. Then along comes those who argue against your understanding with their own superior understanding. Sounds like the proverbial circular argument.
My point is God gives you the revelation and the understanding. How can anyone claim that they know by their own intellect?
If one is born with certain innate
talents one cannot brag about it. They had nothing to do with it. Therefore if one is born-again with certian gifts, how can he boast in that? God has sovereignly chosen, and distributed, according to His design. So I say again, the argument that we really cannot know at all is man-centered and denies what He has done. All subjective, relative, experiential, intellectual defenses fly in the face of the Almighty God. This is essentially what is called post-modernism philosophy today,So Grey Owl that is why I care about the emerging church phenomenon and post-modernism.
It is an attempt to make everybody feel better,justify ourselves, and build our "self-esteem". There was no bigger blow to these things than the cross.
there is a difference between saying, we can not know it at all, and we can not know it all.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, even if it is true that no one seeks after God, which I do not believe, it is very much a given that we are to constantly seek wisdom and knowlegde and a better understanding of God, being poor in Spirit means essentially that we must acknowledge that we do not know it all. If one claims to understand all the mysteries of Scripture, then what is there left to seek, and where should one seek for it?
Chrisp - you are absolutely right, I did leave out the Holy Spirit. That was not intentional, I assure you. But my point is, what happens when two people believe that the spirit is telling them contradictory things? How do we tell who is right? By going back to the scriptures? ok, so what interpretation? 2 people who lives equally christian lives interpret the scriptures differently, both believing that the holy spirit led them to their interpretation. Now what? This is where the scholars come in, to help weed out poor interpretation. However, I firmly believe that anyone truly seeking after God will find him and the truth. They may not find all things, but they will find salvation and what is necessary to live a life pleasing to God (although there is some leeway there, see Romans 14).
I most certainly believe that we can understand the things that God reveals to us, as far as he intends us to understand them. In the above example, for both of those folks to be Christians there would have to be certain non-negotiables. I was a newly converted christian once, I was 16 and turning away from all manner of crap in my life. I believed then much what I believe now - that Jesus dies for my sins in order to bring me to him and to God, and that he wanted me to tell others about him. Now I'm in professional ministry, have read many books and taken many classes on understanding the Bible. I am still shamed daily by farmers, truckers and other "laymen" who have a depth of faith that I doubt I will ever reach. So what if I understand/believe now that the story of Jonah was not meant to be taken literally, or that Peter didn't write second peter, or that many Old Testament accounts were written in poetic form? These people have been reached by God to do great things, and he gives them as much of an understanding through the Holy Spirit as they need.
Others of us do the historical study, and grow to have a deeper understanding of the scriptures. But the fundamantals for myself and the farmers are the same. We both agree that mankind is sinful, need God's forgiveness/regeneration, and that we are but tools in his hands. The peripherals are up in the air, as far as I'm concerned. Like the salvation of the unevangelized, for example. I have several friends who disagree with me. I have several friends who agree with me. Some have seminary/college education, some don't. But we are all in agreement that here and now we are to preach Christ and him crucified. The unevangelized are, for all intents and purposes, up to God. And either way we can trust him to be more just, more merciful and more righteous than we could ever understand. It is well within his power to save everyone. It is well within his rights to save none. It is well within his character to not reveal this mystery to us totally, instead revealing the things to us that we need to know, and that virtually all christians since the beginning have agreed on - like the Apostles' Creed, for example. As I said, there are certain non-negotiables. Everything else is up for debate.
Make any sense?
The slippery slope is how one defines peripherals and non-negotiables. As for understanding there is always deeper to go into the Scripture. However the Scriptures never conradict themselves. So if along the way I see the Scripture saying something, and later on I come to believe that is not what it is saying at all, then I can assume my original thoughts were defective, if I know that my later study is revealing the actual Truth. The Holy Spirit reveals all Truth as Jesus said and leads us into all Truth. Ultimately there has to be an arrival at the actual meaning of Scripture. An absolute God would give an absolute Word.
Besides Deut 29:29 says that the revealed things are for us so that we may keep the words of the Law. No how is that possible if we are never arriving to the understanding of the Words?
Chrisp, we are both basing our understanding on assumptions. You said "An absolute God would give an absolute word." That's an assumption. And I don't think either of us is being a "bad" christian for proceeding with our assumptions.
Certain passages in the Bible mean more than one thing. Specifically, the passages that talk about the coming of christ - they had an immediate meaning and a prophetic meaning. the latter meaning was hidden for some time, until Christ came. So interpretation may change with time, as more is revealed to us. Even if you were right, that still doesn't answer my question about the two believers who both think the Spirit is telling them something - how would you deal with that in your congregation?
All I'm saying is that past experiences behoove us to not assume that we have a complete understanding of scripture here and now. I always enter into a conversation like this with an open heart, laying my beliefs on the line in pursuit of truth. If something I believe is shown to be false then I must abandon it. That is the only way these kinds of conversations work; both parties have humility about their own understanding and admit the possibility from the get-go that they may be wrong. Otherwise it's he-said she-said, and nothing gets accomplished. I'm asking this in all sincerity: are you in this conversation to pursue truth, or are you here to prove those that disagree with you (and your interpretation) wrong?
Chris P,
Were you not the one who proposed the flaw in several people communing with God, and learning what he wants without the guidance of the Bible?
How greatly does this differ from your claim that all can read the Bible and trust the Holy Spirit to guide them to the truth. You read the word and rely on spiritual guidance, I read the world and rely on the same. God wrote both.
In respect to the latter, I must address your earlier comments about leaving it to God to save the earth. How does God spread his word? Through his faithful. How does God aid his downtrodden? Through his faithful. (Whatsoever you do to the least...) How will God repair the earth? Perhaps we should consider the above pattern.
I am sure as a pastor you have heard the following story. (I think it quite possible that one can't be a preacher until they do, and unfortunately it has close bearing on a recent event now.)
A man's home town is flooding. As the water raises up and the warnings go out, a bus pulls up. "Hey buddy," the driver yells, "Hop in, we're getting out of town."
"Oh no, don't worry, God will save me." The man replies.
When the water raises to the level of his second floor a boat pulls up. The driver calls out, "Hey, climb out the window, we will get you to safety."
"Oh no, don't worry, God will save me." He replies.
Now the water has risen high enough that he sits on his roof. A helicopter comes to him. "Come on." The rescuer yells over the propellers, "Let's get you out of here."
"Oh no, God will save me." He answers.
Shortly later, the man drowns and finds himself facing God. "What happened?" He asked. "I had faith. I told everyone you would save me. Why didn't you?"
"I tried." God replies. "I sent a bus, a boat and a helicopter."
Who do you suppose God is sending to take care of this planet?
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