Psalm 83
Verse one reads: O God do not remain quiet, Do not be silent and O God, do not be still...
How would God speak to us today? Dreams - Visions - through our imaginations?
The God of Glory Thunders (psalm 29).
Well it seems as if God has spoken loud and clear to the world a few days ago. Yet I ask, who will listen? In Ireland, a book was found. An old book. (have you read the news reports?)
It was obviously an ancient Roman Catholic book - from between 800 and 1000 years AD., written in Latin. A prayer book. A book of psalms. Buried in a bog for over 1000 years. Open to Psalm 83. Thats what CNN said in their report.
So let's read Psalm 83. Does God know what's happening in the middle east?
Is the Israel attack an act of God, or are they taking things into their own hands rather than waiting for God to act? The Old Testament is full of real battles, defeats, and victories. Will God, YHWH, receive the Glory? Will anyone actually come to know that He alone, whose name is YHWH is the Most High over all the earth? Will anyone listen?
Psa 83:1 A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. O God, do not keep silence; do not hold your peace or be still, O God!
Psa 83:2 For behold, your enemies make an uproar; those who hate you have raised their heads.
Psa 83:3 They lay crafty plans against your people; they consult together against your treasured ones.
Psa 83:4 They say, "Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!"
Psa 83:5 For they conspire with one accord; against you they make a covenant--
Psa 83:6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites,
Psa 83:7 Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;
Psa 83:8 Asshur also has joined them; they are the strong arm of the children of Lot. Selah.
Psa 83:9 Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
Psa 83:10 who were destroyed at En-dor, who became dung for the ground.
Psa 83:11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
Psa 83:12 who said, "Let us take possession for ourselves of the pastures of God."
Psa 83:13 O my God, make them like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind.
Psa 83:14 As fire consumes the forest, as the flame sets the mountains ablaze,
Psa 83:15 so may you pursue them with your tempest and terrify them with your hurricane!
Psa 83:16 Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O LORD.
Psa 83:17 Let them be put to shame and dismayed forever; let them perish in disgrace,
Psa 83:18 that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth.
24 comments:
I struggle with this so much:
Is Israel still the nation of God?
Did turning their back on Jesus take that title from them?
Does the nation of God now refer to believers?
If the answer to The first question is "yes" then how do we respond to the actions of Israel when we don't totally agree with what they are doing?
When what they are doing goes against the teachings of the New Testament?
I'm not saying that's necessisarily the case here, I just don't know well enough to say.
Thanks for the thought provoking post.
There are specific prophecies for eretz Y'Israel (the land),in terms of wars, restoration and such that have not been fulfilled. This is being acted out before us now.
The question is "who" comprises Israel. According to Scripture it is Jew and Gentile who are belevers according to the Abrahamic Covenant. Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
What about the Hizbollah that are going against the teachings of Jesus?
Quit dividing the OT from the New. The Word of God stands forever including the fact that He did not promise land to anyone but the nation of Israel.
Jesus fulfills not abolishes.
We are seeing the real problem with the evangelical/emergent/liberal church. They don't see Christ in the OT. I refer them to John 5:37-47
I say once again that the real pharisees are those who disregard the Scripture in its entirety.
Chris,
Why does this have to be turned into an Emergent/Evangelical/Liberal vs. Fundamentalist/Reformed thing? I wasn't trying to make a point, I was truly just sharing questions that I don't know the answer to, in hopes of some guidence.
I didn't mean to divide OT & NT. Heck, I love the OT and give it just as much weight as the NT (as it should have). I'm reading through Samuel in my QT's right now and I see Christ all over the place.
As you said, Christ fulfills, so I guess what I should have asked was: What do we do/think/say when Israel's actions conflict with our understanding of the complete Fulfilled Word of God?
As for Hizbollah, I have an even bigger issue with what they are doing, but the original post was about Israel, and that is where my questions lie.
Finally, thank you for answering my question about "who" is Israel, and pointing me to scripture to help clear it up.
Mo
I am not trying to turn this into an argument. My apologies.
What makes anyone so sure that Israel's actions are not fulfillment of prophecy?
The chuch generally reacts to all current events as if God knows nothing about it. He doesn't hit the snooze button when the alarm goes off. There is nothing that he does not know or foreknow. The question to me is what is He allowing to occur, and why and how does that fit into His revealed will and plan in the Scriptrures, Everythinmg He wants us to know is given in the Book for us to learn.
We need to quit thinking like the rest of mankind e.g. UN peace plans etc. There will be no peace until He comes to vanquish and establish.
See, this is where my head starts spinning and I get confused. This is why I generally don't even open my mouth when it comes to the middle east. Some of my friends just assume that it's because I'm a republican Christian, and support Israel all they way, but the truth is I just don't know what to think.
*deep breath*
This *could* be the fulfillment of prophecy. God *could* be using this to bring about the end times, or whatever else. At the same time He *could* be using it to challenge us to live up to that whole "Love thy neighbor" thing. I agree with you that there won't be any peace, especially in that region, until He comes again, but does that mean we should just throw up our hands and let whatever happens happen? I don't think so. I think God would have us help compassionatly wherever we can, but I here so many different ideas of what that means that I don't even know where to start or what to do.
I guess that's why God has called me to mission in my local community, and not as a foreign missionary or other more global missions.
Thanks again to both of you for challenging me to seriously consider all of this.
notice how the news likes to show children in crisis? i was thinking about the children this morning. i usually pray that God will protect the innocent children caught in the cross fire. this morning i caught myself praying that God would bless the children who are being taught to hate. it occured to me that the Muslims and, yes the Jews are given by "their god" permission to hate. Actually, I think it was a misunderstanding on the part of the Jews who got so wrapped up in being God's "chosen people" that they neglected their responsiblity to be a blessing to the other nations. Jesus set them straight when He said "you have heard it said to love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I tell you to love your enemy as yourself." He expanded the meaning of neighbor in the parable of the good Samaritan. He demonstrated it when he forgave the roman driving nails into his hands.
I appreciate the last part of your last comment Mo. Believe in Jesus, Love, and pray for peace.
No one said that one couldn't give aid and show compassion.
Jesus Himself said that things would get worse not better. We are to pray according to what the Scriptures reveal as His will just as Daniel did, and Nehemiah, and Ezra, and Esther and .........
The Scriptures say that when we see these things look up, not organize a a peace summit.
I do not espouse right wing Christianity either. John Hagee, among others, is a fool.
Intercessors are to pray the revealed will of God, not what we think God's love/plan/will should look like.
I am currently praying Psalm 94 and writing a song about it. Of course I will be criticized for being unloving. I say take it up with the author. God's jusitce is not just being kind to the children, and feeding the widows, the poor, and the needy. That is a good part of it, but His justice will include full recompense for all men according to what they have done.
His vengeance, on behalf of His name, and His people, IS His justice.
I do no throw up my hands in futility. I lift them and seek His peace, and ask whatever His Word has prophecied to happen, good or bad, to come to pass.
Deut 32:35-43;Luke 18:7-8;
Rev 22:10-21
Psalm 94:19 KJV
"In the multitude of my thoughts within me Thy comforts delight my soul."
Clearly chris p has never read the new testament and doesn't care what Jesus thinks.
LOLLOLOLOLOLOL!!
This coming from a self -proclaimed non-believer.
happy to see that Mc and Chris P. still stop by now and then for a visit.
Chris P. - "This coming from a self -proclaimed non-believer."
Meaning what? There are people out there who could explain every aspect of Star Wars without believing it is real. What do you know of how knowledgeable he is?
I often use the President analogy.
Many people know a lot about President Bush, but few people have personal relationships with him. I knew all there was to know about John, Paul, George, and Ringo. I even "loved" them, especially John and Paul. But I never had a real relationship with them. In other words, one can know a lot about the Bible, and Christianity without being a Christian. Even some people who believe they are Christians aren't Christians.
Understood, my point is that it does not necessarily require an intimate knowledge for certain things to be clear from such study as might be taken without belief/relationship. I am not saying one way or another where I stand relative to MC's accusation. He is a big boy and can handle himself. I am simply pointing out that Chris P.'s counterpoint was irrelevant. A non-believer could see that a cannibalistic murderous necrophiliac was neither Christian nor following Jesus's teachings. (An extreme to make a point, Chris, not an accusation that you are such a person)
Ghandi is reported to have said if he had ever met a Christian who truly followed the teachings of Christ he would have converted. Clearly Ghandi "understood" an important element of Christianity that many "Christians" in England and South Africa were missing.
Since Christians are called to preach the good news through out the world, I think it is important to take a lot at how we look to the world, and to take time to listen to the opinions and agruements of non-believers. Which is why Wanderer and Mc are always welcome here, unless Mc gets nasty again...remember I can always hit delete
MC's comment is not a valid point, or question.
He said I have never read the NT or care what Jesus thinks, of which neither statement is true.
It is simply an attempt to insult and/or pick a fight.
If he does not profess faith in Christ, then he would be the one who does not value the Lord's thoughts.
I hav heard that trite story of Ghandi in many versions.
Let's see him tell it to the Lord at the white throne. Let's see if the Lord accepts his, or anyone's, excuses.
Ghandi would have rather seen the world all Hindu, then come to Christ.
BTW if we actually preached the real Gospel it would never be accepted by the worldly.
It is for those who have an ear to hear.
Our friendship does not save the world. Jesus Christ, and Him crucified does.
Neo-pelagianism rules this day, I am afraid.
darn...that last comment was not from Pastor Art...it was from maryellen...forgot who I was for a minute there...actually commenting from a different site
maryellen
Yes preach the Gospel to all. My point exactly. God saves we don't.
I do not give up on the world. We are called to be at the Lord's disposal at all times, and to be obedient at all times. The methods are given in Scripture, we do not have to tweak anything to get better results. The results are God's domain. He has mercy, or not, as He sovereignly wills.
All things are as they are because God has so ordained it to be.
Sorry even a yearning for peace and justice do not bring salvation. Ghandi had a political/religious agenda. It grieves the Lord to see "his children" put these men on a pedestal over His own Body.
I didn't say Ghandi was saved, I just said he wasn't seeking to convert the world to hinduism, which is what Chris had indicated in his comment. I'm not one to determine who is or isn't saved, who was or wasn't saved...that is our LORD's call, and it is only through and in Jesus that anyone gets into the Kingdom of God.
maryellen
Chris - "MC's comment is not a valid point, or question.
He said I have never read the NT or care what Jesus thinks, of which neither statement is true.
It is simply an attempt to insult and/or pick a fight.
If he does not profess faith in Christ, then he would be the one who does not value the Lord's thoughts."
This is what I was referring to. If you bothered to read what I wrote you would see that I never claimed he had a valid point, or that he didn't. Look: "I am not saying one way or another where I stand relative to MC's accusation." I think that is pretty straight forward and understandable. My point was that your response should have been as quoted above, as opposed to making an invalid point yourself. His profession as a non-believer was invalid as a counter argumentative point.
"I hav heard that trite story of Ghandi in many versions.
Let's see him tell it to the Lord at the white throne. Let's see if the Lord accepts his, or anyone's, excuses."
Tell me, then. If a group of "Christians" attempted to convert me telling me that the requirements would be double homicide? If they came to me and told me that their God required me to live a chaste life even though I had witnessed daily orgies? Would your God hold me responsible for refusing to do the abominable in his name? For not believing obvious hypocrites to be telling me the truth about who he was?
Not that this was even MaryEllen's point in relaying the story. You seem to have missed that. (Big surprise there.) She merely illustrated that a non-believer had these professed believers correctly pegged. The nature of the question directly applying to whether your dismissive statement held water.
"BTW if we actually preached the real Gospel it would never be accepted by the worldly."
Odd, this statement. Haven't you indicated repeatedly that God determines who hears? Do you then limit his power if we were to preach the real gospel? What gospel are you preaching if not the real one? How does God feel about you preaching a fabricated one?
"Ghandi had a political/religious agenda."
Odd for you to say this after being so dismissive of MC for not having a relationship with Jesus. What relationship do you have with Ghandi? Oh, wait. It wasn't that MC didn't know you, it was that he didn't know your God. So, then, you are professed believer in Hindu? (Does my using your absurd argument work any better than when you did?)
Ah Wanderer
You are more than predictable. As usual, it is your argument that is absurd. King of the non-sequitor, I crown you.
The point is; MC has no point.
My point about Ghandi is that he could care less about Jesus Christ.
Evidently no one here reads what is actually writtem.
Also this story about Ghandi has been floating around in one form or another for quite awhile.
It is irrelevant what you or Mohandas think, or have ever thought about hypocritical Christians.
The fact of the matter is that outside of Christ,you are lost.
I have found no where an indication that the report of the Psalm book found open to Psalm 83 was false. The Spiritual significance of this "coincidence" has been underplayed in the media and infact in the world of psalms.
To me it falls in the catogory of signs and wonders...
As far as who is saved, I'll leave that up to Jesus, as far as who is lost...I would gently and respectfully remind Chris that according to his own testamony he lived nearly half his life "outside" of Christ...and it the lost to whom we are to reaching out. Having said that, perhaps we should consider this particular discussion closed.
maryellen
MaryEllen - Chris has insulted me in his last comments in this exchange, not once, but twice. Once indirectly and once point blank. These things get out of control at points, I am well aware, and as such you have to step in and moderate. After all, it is you who gets their e-mail box flooded as a result. As such, I will let it slide for now, but wish you to know that it is only due to your request.
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