Knowing
Can we know the true nature of God?
Isn't the very concept of GOD infinately more complex than our feeble, finite minds can grasp?
Yet if we trust in the Bible - the living - God-breathed Word of God, He wants to be know by us, and He has revealed His true nature to us, or at least as much of it as He knows we can comprehend. One of the most simple truths about His nature is that He is LOVE. Some scholars balk at that statement. It must sound rather wishy washy. Many times critics say - "how could a loving God allow..."
Yet Love is a defining factor in the Divine and the whole of the Law is contained in the two greatest commandments - Love God and Love one another.
We also know that His Loving Kindness and Mercy endure forever.
He is of course a just God, which is why there had to be the Cross.
And the Word tells us He is a jealous God - He wants to be the only one worshiped, the only one honored, because of course He is the only one who created and the only one who saved...
But, if circumstances or theologies seem to contradict this Truth about a loving God...than we must dig deeper. There is no evil intent - no darkness - no lack of mercy in the God of the Bible.
Teachers beware. We who have received the gift of teaching carry a great resposibility.
There are some hard sayings in the Bible. And there are some frightening, overwhelming circumstances in life that can rip a person's faith to shreds. There are some doctrines of men which use Scripture as a basis, but are very dangerous. Teachers must search for wisdom as men search for precious jewels (Job 28) . And all truth, even Biblical truth, must be alligned with what God has revealed about Himself. He is Love. He loves. And His command is Love.
19 comments:
"He is of course a just God, which is why there had to be the Cross."
I have never understood this claim, and have never found one willing to address it. Are you geared up, then, to explain how this makes the cross necessary?
"And the Word tells us He is a jealous God"
Yet how can this be true if He is in face a just God?
ok - here's hoping that Inheritor will help with this one too.
but as I see it -
The law says we must be punished for our crimes - that is justice!
Crime (sin) deserves punishment...
Jesus (God Himself) took the ultimate punishment upon himself - paid our fine (death) as in the Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe. The penalty for being a traitor was death...Aslan paid the penalty for Edmund rather than break the law - justice was served, Edmund was saved.
Ah, Jealousy...
I am not an especially jealous wife.
Not in that I suspect Art or get all worked up over harmless flirtation.
But he is MY husband. And I would not just step aside and allow him to be intimate with another woman.
God is a jealous God. He has created, provided for, revealed Himself to His creation...He alone deserves to be worshiped, and although He doesn't usually strike priests or priestesses of false religions down with lightning...He has made His position on the worship of false (demi-gods, demon gods) gods very clear.
Again, mercy triumphs over justice.
Hows that for a start?
I understand that precept, yet it doesn't seem to hold. First of all, some of these "crimes" are simply a result of us being what we are. Teaching, even the teachings that don't hold with original sin, seems to indicate that avoiding sin is impossible. If such, our makeup being flawed is not our responsible, but the responsibility of this judge. The one who made us flawed.
Second, even if we can't get into heaven without this debt being erased, why would it have to include the cross? What limit is this on God's power? I think it makes a powerful statement, but I can't see as how it would be necessary.
As for the jealousy thing, I really don't see it. Because one of the most unjust things about His jealousy would be the fact that He knows there are many reasons why we might not be able to believe. In the case of your husband, you know he is your husband. That gives you a little more room for jealousy. Of course, you also know that you are not the only one who could possibly be his wife. Just the one that happens to be at the moment. Who exactly does God have to be jealous of?
"God is a jealous God. He has created, provided for, revealed Himself to His creation..."
Created and provided for, yes. Revealed Himself? Not sufficiently. We are having this debate after all. Lets try this one on for the justice of jealousy question:
God creates man, but does not directly interact with Him on a daily basis. He has people write down His desires and His laws and pass them along. He then comes down Himself and refutes many of these laws that He handed down, and raises the level of the others. He issues some promises of salvation and then He goes away again. Leaving men to carry on the story. Now a man who realizes that men are fallible and often enough wrong and/or intentionally deceptive, finds himself unable to read a story handed down from man to man. So he turns from this God and looks elsewhere.
Is this jealousy just? No. No more so than the jealousy of a man who fakes his own death when his wife remarries. His jealousy would not be just, because it is His fault. Mercy isn't trumping here.
If our crimes are a result of us being who we are, then predestination would be the logical although unloving conclusion. We do what we do because we are predestined to do it.
Then we can argue, how can God judge us for something we have no control over. Let's try to avoid that debate.
God creates us with a perfect plan in mind and gives us the gifts and talents to accomplish that plan. Sin is when we diliberatly go against that plan, reject the help and guidence that God continually offers, and go our own selfish way.
The greatest sin here, is to deny the creator and choose instead to worship the creation. Part of creation longs to be worshiped. And will deceive and distract to get the worship and honor due to God alone.
When God created the angelic host it was for His own glory. Apparently he created them with a free will, because Lucifer chose to rebell and consequently led a rebellion.
Heaven is a perfect place, where only perfection may reside. God had not provided a plan for Salvation for the angelic. So those who chose to rebell were forever banned from Heaven. When God created man, lovingly breathed life into him after forming him with his own hands, he made a provision for salvation...a way to wash away the sins of the world, to allow the imperfect into heaven. Why a blood sacrifice? Why so drastic an action as the cross? I'm not sure, perhaps so that no one could question the extent of his love for his children.
No other God or Goddess has done such a thing for creation. Remember my postings on the cross? The cross is the deciding factor, the pivitol point, Jesus divine, crucified, risen and coming again.
Time to go back to teaching my students. Will respond to you other points later. Blessings
"There are some hard sayings in the Bible. And there are some frightening, overwhelming circumstances in life that can rip a person's faith to shreds."
How so? Since faith comes from God and not from ourselves, ever. How can the faith God gives be torn to shreds?
Eph 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
What a weak God He must be.
"There are some doctrines of men which use Scripture as a basis, but are very dangerous."
Please list some.
"Teachers beware. We who have received the gift of teaching carry a great resposibility."
Amen to that!! What criteria determines those who have the gift of teaching?
humble seeker - some good questions.
my answers may not seem very "orthadox"
Let me just address one now, and the rest when I have more time.
"Since faith comes from God and not from ourselves, ever. How can the faith God gives be torn to shreds?"
I would say that it is grace to believe, not belief it's self that comes from God. There is danger here.
Even David questioned God. In times of severe trying, many - as they stumble through the dark night of the soul - question Him, His love and His goodness. If they believe that faith comes from God only, and that faith is shaken - by the death of a child or a violent distructive act of "nature"...then couldn't they conclude that they had no faith to begin with. And walk away broken, from the only ONE who can truely heal the broken hearted. If God never forsakes the elect, and I feel forsaken by God, then isn't it logical that I am not one of the elect...again I walk away feeling damned. If faith can move mountains, and I don't have enough faith to see my baby healed...then I guess I don't have faith at all, then I guess I'm not really saved...so I walk away from what faith I thought I had. These are not examples from my personal life, but true examples from the lives of friends who believed in the teaching of divine election and predestination and are now living a life of darkness.
Hey there, I answered two question...because predestination and election are doctrines of man that I believe goes against the loving, merciful nature of God and is dangerous to the souls of man.
Some random statements tied to some of the above comments:
We were created to be in relationship/fellowship with God. The marriage analogy is an apt one to describe the reason why God is a jealous God. He wants an exclusive relationship with his "bride". He does not want us running off after false "gods" because they do not have our best interests at heart and will ultimately hurt us.
The book of Hebrews acts as a bridge between Old and New Testaments and explains well how the atonement of Jesus works and was patterned by Old Testament worship and sacrifice.
The cross does seem foolishness to those who do not believe and this confirms what the bible says about it.
Maryellen: "If God never forsakes the elect, and I feel forsaken by God, then isn't it logical that I am not one of the elect...again I walk away feeling damned."
I would say it is not logical. Faith does not equal feelings. How I feel about it really has nothing to do with what Christ has done for me. It has nothing to do with where my eternal security rests.
"I would say that it is grace to believe, not belief it's self that comes from God."
Aren't they the same thing? If you don't have grace to believe, then how can one believe?
"If God never forsakes the elect, and I feel forsaken by God, then isn't it logical that I am not one of the elect..."
Is it logical?
Do our feelings determine the facts?
When faith is tested, it is God, like a master swordmaker, testing HIS workmanship, the mettle of His work. That is the rest of the passage from Eph 2 (verse 10) He is not testing us, He is testing His work in us.
The point being that God does it all.
If we receive an unshakeable Kingdom, then the shaking surely comes, else why would it be called
unshakeable. It would have to proved to be so. Anything left standing after the shaking is from God, the rest is hubris.
So Paul can say that which does not come from faith, is sin.
Questioning God and sorrowing are not unbelief in and of themselves, but forsaking all that He has given and done and revealed is fatal.
"If faith can move mountains, and I don't have enough faith to see my baby healed...then I guess I don't have faith at all, then I guess I'm not really saved..."
Only the word of faith teachers would preach such stuff.
As for predestination, what about:
Eph 1:3-14
Acts 4:23-31
Romans 8:26-39
John 6:36-45
Isaiah 37:26
John 9:1-5
etc. etc. etc.
Is there not a predestination of the Lord?
I agree that how we feel at any given time does not affect in anyway what Jesus has done for us. And yet, Jesus wept. He understands our feelings.
But what does foresaken mean? If circumstances seem to indicate that God has foresaken us...
As far as predestination, I believe we are all predestined for salvation, but that some will choose instead to reject Jesus and cling to a lie. As far as election goes, it is nation of Israel that is the elect. We, by putting our faith in Jesus, can become grafted into the fellowship of the elect. And Jews, by rejecting Jesus can loose the position of being part of the elect.
I have addressed many of the verses that Humble Seeker mentions in previous posts. I know in some cirles my take on these verses makes me a heretic. Yet I have studied them and I am not the only one who interprets them "differently".
When I am faced with such verses, I remember the nature of God (Love, Mercy, Loving Kindness) and investigate just how the original hearers would understand them.
as for the "word of faith" preachers - this is one of the Doctrines of Man that use scripture as reinforcement which I referred to in my post...
as well as the teaching/doctrine of rapture. Dangerous.
Humble Seeker - It is a dangerous teaching that all faith comes from God. My faith failed. If it was only from God that faith came, then God in fact failed. I doubt that was the case, but then I don't believe faith comes from God.
While never once being my intention to make it so, I may search your archives at some point to determine exactly how many posts, like this one, I have been the one to make comment #13 on. I know there have been several.
Wanderer: How did your faith fail?
To get totally off the track, concerniing the "lucky" number 13 and the DiVinci Code:
secular TV has been doing a great job of debunking the nonsense found in the book and movie. Concequently there have been a lot of interesting shows on the Freemasons and Templar Knights. One interesting "fact" was that the Templar Knights were rounded up for execution and extermination of October 13, thirteen hundred something - which is why - many believe - that the number 13 became considered an unlucky number.
Wanderer
"It is a dangerous teaching that all faith comes from God."
Dangerous for whom?
Dangerous perhaps for a person who finds themself in a crisis of faith.
Another dangerous "doctrine" of man -
Once saved always saved.
Leads confused loved ones, pastors, parents to say ... oh well I guess he wasn't really saved after all...
Leads sinners racked with guilt to say - oh well, I guess I wasn't saved anyway.
Leads sinners trapped in habitual sin
to say, it's OK - I said the sinner's prayer, my name was written in the book of life, no one is perfect...nothing I do will void my ticket in.
again - these are not hypothetical situations, but people I know or knew personally.
The gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Jesus Christ - Fulfiller of prophecies, born of a virgin, teacher, healer, shepherd and the lamb of God. Cruicified, Risen and Coming again.
I agree. The sinner's prayer does not necessarily mean anything.
I actually don't care for that mode of evangelism at all.
But........
Hebrews 7:
23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
NASB
If one is truly redeemed,i.e. genuinely converted, then one can never lose that. God gives the gift. It is His always. We cannot lose it. However, we can stray away. The prodigal son was a true son not the unregenerate. Only a true son would come back to the Father. Hebrews 6 does not teach that we can lose our salvation.
God cannot fail.
God is the giver of true faith, not all faith(s), and He is the giver of salvation. If God cannot be instructed, mocked or His work stymied, then men cannot over-rule Him.
I just don't see anything that contradicts this in Scripture.
Hebrews 7:25
The earthy high priests had to continually, annually offer sacrifices for the cleansing of sin.
Jesus, the Divine High Priest had to perform the ultimate sacrifice only once. Once and for ALL. For whosoever believes.
I think the word "forever" in that verse can be interpreted differently than "humble seeker" indicates. But I'd have to ask my resident pastor/Bible Scholar to check the greek.
God can not fail.
It is His will that none be lost.
Yet, He gives all the freedom to choose, and some choose the darkness rather than the light.
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