Monday Morniing
In the CEV, Psalm 4:3,4 reads: The Lord has chosen everyone who is faithful to be His very own, and he answers my prayers. But each of you had better tremble and turn from your sins, Silently search you heart as you lie in bed...trust God.
In the NASB is says: But know that the LORD has set apart the godly man for Himself, The LORD hears when I call to Him, Tremble, and do not sin, Meditate in your heart upon your bed and be still...trust in the LORD.
So did He choose who would be faithful, or did He choose those who were faithful?
Is there a difference. Are the ungodly being called to meditate on the LORD and trust Him, or are those words only for those who have been prechosen to trust?
Tie this in with Genesis 4
verses 6, 7 (NASB) Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your contenance fallen? If you do well, will not you be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door, and it's desire is for you, but you must master it."
Did the LORD believe that Cain could master it, rise above it, resist it? Are warnings and declarations only for those that He has chosen to be faithful? What was the purpose of God's intercourse with Cain here? Was it a warning that Cain could not have possibly heeded? What was Cain's destiny? What was God's will?
Why do people only seem to want to comment on things like this where they can get into an argument? I have to get to work...
36 comments:
Wasn't this before Jesus incarnate??
Do the "ungodly" even read the Bible as the Word of God?
Everything God says or does is from His perspective and for us to understand. Apart from Christ/God how is sin mastered??
"I'm tired of the lies of the enemy,
tired of the sin that lies in wait for me"
Seems I heard these words in a song somewhere referring to Cain and ourselves.
back to the same old argument. God has predestined ends within a predestined plan. Knowing the end from the beginning...
However since he has complete foreknowledge of all our "choices", and all of the enemy's tricks, He uses these things for His ends and causes all things to work together. IOW He knows what He will do with our choices before we choose.
Acts 4:24-31
Isaiah 37:26-35
you are right Chris, we are back to the old argument again. having had the same Bible teachers and most of the same life experiences I agree with Pastor Art TheoLOGICALLY and in most issues of doctrine. I have stated on this blog, over the months, that what really matters is "Who then do you say I AM?" Tongues or no Tongues, Rapture? Pre, Mid, Post??? What version is best, clearest, closest to the original languages literally, close to the orgininal languages grammarically, authorized or not??? Sacred Music? Sacred to what culture? Candles and Incense. So what? What matters is Jesus and the Cross. So I can join hands in prayer and Christian fellowship with Baptists and Methodists and Episcpalians and yes even Catholic, because when I look at the cross, all I see is LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. There are some people out there who make huge issues out of the doctrinal things I mentioned. They become dividers in the body. And there are some people in here who say, for all the world to read, if you believe this, or don't believe that, you are of the enemy. I believe in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I believe He is very God and very Man, born of a virgin, dead, risen and coming again. A lot of liberal, self proclaimed Christians out the don't believe that is essential these days.
This old argument has really taken me deeper into the Word than I have been in a long time. I've even read one of Pastor Arts Theological books, which I've avoided for years. I have come to some disturbing conclusions about just where our modern doctrines come from. I too am tired of the lies of the enemy. Yet lies are all the snake has. The cross, oh the wonderful cross.
Yet, what does it say about my faith, my hope, (built on nothing less than Jesus and His righteousness) when I agree more with a young pagan, who admitedly clings to the dark, than I do with a dear old friend with whom I worship every sunday?
I read Wanderer's take on prayer and free will, and I say, Yeah, That's what I mean...
I read yours (since this long comment is directed to Chris) and I wonder, just what god you believe in? I know your answer Chris, my dear friend and brother, You believe in the God of the Bible, so do I. My faith was on pretty shakey ground for a while there. I was pretty close to giving up the whole thing. Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. What Word? The words from Genesis to Revelation, all translated into English by humans with some sort of bias or agenda, no translation perfect, but still Powerful. Or the Word of God that became flesh, died on the Cross, Risen, and Coming again (soon Lord, Soon).
I believe that the HOLY SPIRIT can use any translation or paraphrase with which to touch the hearts of those who are seeking Truth. I also know full well, that man can take the words of any translation and twist them, misquote them, and abuse people with them. I am not accusing you of doing that Chris, I guess that last sentence was to answer you question do the "ungodly" ever read thw Bible as the Word of God? Who are the ungodly? The ones who choose to walk in the dark, or the ones walking in the dark because they really had no choice...it was their destiny. Those sins in our past, the ones that hurt the people we love, the sins of my sons who were trained up in the way they should have gone since conception, the sins of the people who have hurt us, let us down, all those past sins...God planned for those? He predestined those? My daughter-in-law is right? She was predestined to have the affaire that destroyed her marriage and severly wounded her husband and children. God knew all along that she would do it. It was His will, his plan. Then sinners need not worry about taking respnsibility for their own actions, God knew and judged a head of time, and nothing really matters at all. That doesn't make any sense to me.
OK, enough...I must get on with my day. I'm feeling frustrated again, but the frigid air, the glorious sunrise, the snow capped mountains in the distance will put my mind at ease again. I have "duty" this week, I stand outside, surveying the vista that is the Shiprock community, I look at the three mountains, that are in three differnt states, I say good morning to almost every student in the school. And I pray.
God bless them, God bless Us, everyone.
rufkzoWell, I feel like I'm joining the party late, but here goes...
John Calvin said, "Scripture affirms both free will and predestination, and does not attempt to resolve the tension between the two."
I think that it's something we're probably not going to understand. How can it be both? I don't know, but every time I affirm one the other comes back with a very convincing argument. I think it comes down to a question: Can God be trusted?
Mary, I'm with Chris on this: prdestination has to be a part of the world we live in. But I don't think this means that God doesn't care or that he just causes pain and pain and pain and lets us suffer so he can look good. I think that we can't fathom the height and width and length and bredth of his love. While we were still sinners Christ died for us. There is hope in that.
I think you'd benefit from reading Dr. Terry Theissan's "Who Can be Saved?" an exploration of salvation from a monergist point of view that doesn't wind up being hurtful or dismissive of those who are not saved.
Maryellen, I think that either way you're loving and serving God. What more can one expect to do?
Grey Owl wrote;
"Mary, I'm with Chris on this: prdestination has to be a part of the world we live in. But I don't think this means that God doesn't care or that he just causes pain and pain and pain and lets us suffer so he can look good. I think that we can't fathom the height and width and length and bredth of his love. While we were still sinners Christ died for us. There is hope in that."
Chris P. and Grey Owl in agreement??!!
This must be one of those things that snuck by the Lord. :-)
The "spin" put on my statements is
that I am espousing a
hyper- calvinist, and/or God is mean, and we are robots doctrine. Not at all, but the only view the Bible supports is a God who foreknows everything and everyone, as I posted in my second comment.
I claim no denominational or calvinist/arminian doctrines per se. I do adhere ONLY to the Scripture as the true reliable source. If the doctrine lines up with Scripture then I can agree with it. If the doctrines and practices of a particular denonmination are steeped in non-scriptural beliefs e.g. the RC, or ...? Then I don't go there. I don't have to set foot in a church that is not Biblical. The only ones who are my brothers are those who have entered into the reconciliation spoken of in 2 Cor 5. Those who are reconciled through the only begotten true Son can call Yahweh, Father, and therefore by default we become brothers. We do not get to choose who is our brother either by excluding, or including, those we would like. They become our brother by choosing the Father. However, we can know who is a false brother or prophet as Jesus said so Himself, and so did the apostles. Matt 7: 15-27 and 1 John 2: 19-21. So this universal, why can't we all get along stuff, is garbage.
When it comes to the unbelievers we encounter in our daily life, I present the Gospel to the best of my ability, for whether one supports Calvin or Arminius, only God knows who will choose Christ crucified and be saved.
Maryellen asked;
“Who are the ungodly? The ones who choose to walk in the dark, or the ones walking in the dark because they really had no choice...it was their destiny. “
I say the difference is……? Either way they are both in the dark.
I also said God FOREKNOWS our every choice and every event that will ever be. That is not predestinating the choice. Your ex -daughter in law has made her choice and wants to blame the Lord. The only ones who are blameless are those who are in Him. By their fruits you will know. She is lost, at the moment.
Maryellen also said;
“I have come to some disturbing conclusions about just where our modern doctrines come from. I too am tired of the lies of the enemy. Yet lies are all the snake has.”
I am in total agreement. However complete foreknowledge has always been in the Bible and is not a modern doctrine. The doctrines of God’s predestined plans are also there. Just because one doesn’t care for Calvin ,Zwingli, or Luther, is irrelevant. They were not wrong about everything . Not everything asscociated with western culture is as bad as being portrayed. Every culture has un-godly ballast to be jettisoned.
This is why we are to reject the world, and cling to Him and His Word.
When contextualization becomes the modus operandi for evangelization we run the risk of allowing in, that which is not of the Kingdom, for the sake of being pc. Note that I make a distinction between contextualized evangelism and worship done in a particular cultural style.Worship is a post facto point. After one comes to the Lord and is filled with the Spirit, then we can sort out what does or does not belong in our fellowship.
I have always put the emphasis on the Holy Spirit and therefore I do not worry about the translations and the original languages to be of primary importance. The Bible is written by God, through men, not by men. He can bring revelation and understanding to anyone He desires to regardless of what men have done to the translations.
John 14:26; John 15:26-27;John 16:7-15
Chris - I think I just saw a pig cruise by at 2,00 feet. Maybe we should call "downstairs" to see if it's frozen over, too!
alright, i give in
i'll do it,
i'll sit down with my commentaries, concordences, theological books, and several translations of the scriptures, and i'll write a paper, as if I was writing for Dr. Livermore, or Dr. Basinger (two of my college professors at Roberts Wesleyan College). I'll prove that Chris' view of the Bible - "the only view the Bible supports is a God who foreknows everythin and everyone" is not the only view. In fact, the view I will present will be more faithful to the Biblical Protrait of God...I wilk avoid two major errors is discussing such things...The danger of presumption, and the danger of exaggerating our inability to understand God. It might end up being dry. It might end up being boring, I'll warn my readers when I post it. But I am tired of being accused, although indirectly most of the time, of being a heretic, unbiblically sound, and liberal, new age, what ever else.
Two more reactions to my friend Chris...
How do you know who are brothers? Future brothers? Fake brothers?
How can my daughter-in-law be "lost at the moment"? Once saved always saved? Sinner saved by grace? Predestined to damnation.
And nothing is more contexualized than the modern english translations of the Bible (by modern I mean from KJV on...)
You sure know how to fire them up! I just think of these things as God wants us to do good. He knows who will choose to do so but only because he is not temporal like we are. We do choose. He gives us the free will and we are not puppets. He is grieved over those who do/did not choose Him but if He made those people do what he wanted, it would not be the same for Him when they choose to follow Him on their own. All I'm saying is that we do have a choice...He just knows already who will choose what...He can see the future, the past and the present as one.
Maryellen: "I am tired of being accused, although indirectly most of the time, of being a heretic, unbiblically sound, and liberal, new age, what ever else...How do you know who are brothers? Future brothers? Fake brothers?
How can my daughter-in-law be "lost at the moment"? Once saved always saved? Sinner saved by grace? Predestined to damnation..."
At the risk of sounding innappropriately Yiddish, Oy Vay. Maryellen, just chill for a minute here. I don't think anyone's asking you to write up a paper and prove your point. I don't think you're a heretic. I'll be honest; I don't think the issue is that big of a deal. Most of my friends are armineanists, and we rarely talk about it. Usually when we do, we wind up at the same place every time - God is more loving, gracious, compassionate and just that we could ever hope to be. If there's anyone we can trust, it's Him.
I don't make these statements lightly. I have several close family members who are not saved. I have many close friends who aren't either. Most of the kids I work with aren't, and I doubt all of them will be converted.
If this issues is really that much of a hot topic, then perhaps we should steer clear of it. It's obvious there's alot of pain you're feeling over this. I don't want anything I say to hurt you or to come across as insensetive, so I think I'll withdraw from the conversation.
Grey Owl, I have never had theological problems with fellow believers before. Who we believe Jesus is, has always been enough of a common ground. I have no problem with you. I think you're pretty cool actually, love your handle. But this argument has become personal to me. I've been willing to say what was said on Dawn is Coming about why I won't continue this argument. I have cited Titus and Timothy in the Biblical warning of not getting into this pointless debate over words...Look to the cross.
M.C.P. I believe that we are called to love, serve, in the name of Jesus, and really, if we are doing that, we don't have time for this sort of stuff. BUT...
Jason and Chris have made some pretty serious pot shots are my "theology". And, although I know I can never change their minds, and it's not my place to do so...I am bound and determine to show that I do have Biblical support for my point of view. If this were a KJV only debate, or a Rapture debate, I could shrug it off. If I there wasn't an important personal, off the blog connection with CP, I'd let it go.
And I'm not going to bother my other 'readers' with this until I'm done with my thesis and publish is. Until then, tis the season...Joy to The World!
Sweet, someone thinks my name's cool... I'm glad I didn't go for the Ojibway spelling: Wa-sha-quon-asin.
Well, good luck then, maryellen. I hope this doesn't give you too much stress. I also think thateither way we both agree that God is a God of love, so there's no problems with that. But it's good not to let people out here in Blogland get your blood pressure up. Take care.
You know, in contribution to the comments MaryEllen has made as to why these heated arguments amongst supposed brothers are not healthy, as well as the comments made on "Dawn is Coming" about why he wouldn't continue this argument, I will throw something in.
The number of Pagans is growing daily. While we are of many religions each of which is growing in small steps, the larger grouping is making leaps and bounds. Any supposition as to why? Might I make a suggestion? Consider this: If you were invited to witness a group meeting, invited by a friend to see how helpful this group could be to you, and when you reach the meeting house you find the members clubbing each other, stabbing each other in the back and offering any other violence at hand, would you care what the supposed message was, or would you turn away?
Many of our religions offer no reward in the end. Yours does. If you were offered no reward, or offered a reward but force to endure being skinned alive in fights over who deserved it or how it would be handed out, which would you choose?
You folks aren't spreading God's love and his teachings through these violent attacks on each other. You are smothering the truth of the message underneath your own arrogance. I have witnessed and even found myself dragged into the middle of several nasty Witch-wars. I have to admit that none of them have been as vile as what you have demonstrated against each other here. I don't see you reflect the God of the bible as I saw it. I surely don't see how you plan on leading anybody to be saved through this vitriol and poison.
I suspect if many of you opened your heart to truly hear God's voice, the first thing you would hear is that you should be ashamed of yourselves.
Wanderer - I think that you may be the voice of God in this regard. There's just no excuse for the kind of hatred that we display.
I would say this: If I were Satan, and I wanted to do the most damage to the spread of the gosepl, I would probably do exactly what's been happening - the continual and destructive division of the church.
"Two more reactions to my friend Chris...
How do you know who are brothers? Future brothers? Fake brothers?
How can my daughter-in-law be "lost at the moment"? Once saved always saved? Sinner saved by grace? Predestined to damnation.
And nothing is more contexualized than the modern english translations of the Bible (by modern I mean from KJV on...) "
Maryellen,
Did you or anyone else here, read 1 John 2:19-21 or Matthew 7:15-27 ??
I do not care about the translations. You are inferring that God is not big enough to actually give us understanding of His Word regardless of the translation.
Ultimately, nothing is left up to us. That has always been my point.
You also wrote:
"I'll prove that Chris' view of the Bible - "the only view the Bible supports is a God who foreknows everythin and everyone" is not the only view. In fact, the view I will present will be more faithful to the Biblical Protrait of God...I wilk avoid two major errors is discussing such things...The danger of presumption, and the danger of exaggerating our inability to understand God"
Sorry,You make some major assumptions already. I have never set out to "prove" anything. I do not presume anything and I do not exaggerate. God gives the revelation and understanding so who are we to deny that God can give this? The Bible does not contradict itself so the only way for tw opposing views to be possible is that either one or both sides are taking Scriptures out of context, or just flat out don't know what they are talking about. The apostles never just "agreed to disagree"
Oswald Chambers wrote, "when we say'I'm too weak' we are really saying 'I'm too strong' " i,e, there has been no death to self.
This is in total agreement with Paul saying that the Lord's strength is made perfect in our weakness. So if we say we can't know, then we are in direct contradiction with the Lord. I have never claimed to know anything because I am so smart, I know because God chose to reveal it. There is no bragging in that. God chooses as He wills. We have nothing to say in the matter and we can make no claims to being special. For those who want to call everyone a brother and "saved" this is a hard reality to accept. As I already stated, who the redeemed are is an unknown until we witness their walk or until the Lord brings us to each other. Your daughter-in-law was never saved as you are right, those that are in His hand cannot be snatched from it. I take no one's word for anything. Jesus said that we are known by our fruit.
Wanderer, Since you worship neither Yahweh, or Yeshua His Son, who happen to be the only true God, then you have nothing to say about our disagreements. The debate over the accuracy of the True God and His true Word is i more important than some "witch's war" No one comes to our Church and finds us fighting. You assume beyond any knowledge of fact. The true God of the universe has said that many will fall away and the gate to destruction is wide. Who cares if the "religion" is growing?
That is not the criteria of what is good and/or true.
Chris - a recommendation, and a warning.
Recommendation: this.
Warning: "Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give an account for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be aquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." Matt 12: 35-37
Chris, if you think it's your duty to "correct" maryellen or whatever because she's a part of your church, do it in private, not here where the whole world can see. And wanderer has just as much right to share his opinion here as anyone, so I think you'd best make your peace with him being a part of the conversation.
Chris,
"No one comes to our Church and finds us fighting."
I find it here and in a hundred other gatherings of differing Christians. If you expect me to believe that this is not something others see and are impacted by, you insult my intelligence. If you believe it, then I insult yours. You don't act as you do out here in contradiction of your own heart. The same heart you take into your churches. Which, by the way, I didn't mention. I said "meeting house". This forum applies.
"Who cares if the "religion" is growing?"
God does, doesn't he? Isn't that why he instructed the disciples to go forth?
"Wanderer, Since you worship neither Yahweh, or Yeshua His Son, who happen to be the only true God, then you have nothing to say about our disagreements."
I don't have to be a fool to lament the fools. If you believe your God to be the true God, more power to you. If my Queen of the Night gains more following at the expense of the numbers who worship the "true God" then that is as it was written, as you pointed it out. Still, if they are driven there by your vitriol and hatred, do you truly believe you won't be held accountable?
No one is driven by my vitriol, or hatred. Your description btw. The reality is you don't know a thing about me.
No one has ever had a major problem with me, or left our church because of me.
In fact our ministry of hospitatlity is quite successful, as our purpose is to make everyone feel at home here, and we feed all our guests and the elderly after every Sunday morning service. You are invited to come and check out some good Navajo cooking if you desire. This ministry was started up by omigosh!! ME!! (To be fair my wife and I.)
Everyman will give an account of themselves to God. The only way in is by grace through faith. Your works do not save you. You can't use the mean Christian fundamentalists as your excuse for rejecting Him.
BTW if you do visit one day, you will find no one fighting.
I can confirm that there is not fighting, not even between he and me, at our church. there may be a little bit of back biting, some gossip before and after service, but it is very minimal and not at all malicious.
one of the reasons why i had to bow out of going to a wednesday night Bible study, was that i knew i would not agree with everything "he" would be teaching, and if i expressed my opinion in that forum it would have sounded to some like a "fight" or that i had no respect for the pastor/teacher in charge. i choose to blog instead.
i addressed some of these issues "privately" on Chris' email, and sort of expected a call or visit after a nice conversation i had with our senior pastor last sunday...but he still chooses to use this mode of communication.
as for the question at hand,
art did some research today on "monergism" because he couldn't remember what it was when Grey Owl mentioned it.And my dining room table is covered with Bibles. I not going to add to the debate until i think i am done with my study.
Except - where in the word does it say..."and they'll know you are Christians by your love."
never mind, I'll find it myself.
Chris -
You know, initially, I didn't point to you specifically. I did respond to you so I understand how you would interpret every "you" to refer to yourself. You aren't the only one whose venom I referenced, but I do include you. I have pointed out many times where it is present here and elsewhere in the blogosphere, but you do not see. Except you do point out that this internet connection is not the "real world". Undoubtedly you imply then that your actions here aren't monitored by your God. For you use this so often to reference my questions about God's teaching in relation to your writings out here.
I did not claim that you Christian Fundamentalists were responsible for my lack of association with the church. Don't be so arrogant. Even in my conversations in regards to your actions this has never been about you, beyond reference in context with the greater issues.
I also didn't imply that the bible teaches that people aren't at fault for turning from God if driven by another. Still, I assert the one driving has some questions to answer. If you can't be civil with each other out here where everyone can see you, how do you expect to do anything but drive repentant sinners away in fear?
As has been the case in every such discussion, I stand by my position and, blind to it, you will stand by yours.
You presume to teach with closed ears. Teaching incorporates learning. If not from what your fellow man has to offer, then from what God says. Look up from the book and listen to him. Ask him what he means. I would guess the first verse he suggests you look up is the one in which he instructed you to abuse your fellow man under a tattered cloak of self-righteousness.
"I can confirm that there is not fighting, not even between he and me, at our church. there may be a little bit of back biting, some gossip before and after service, but it is very minimal and not at all malicious. "
Who are you having conversations with? I hear no gossip or back biting
Grey Owl is it your duty to correct me?
The blog world is separate from our church. I am responding as I would on any other blog.Actually Maryeelen has brought up more church business here than me. I never bring it up on mine.
The scripture you cite applies only if I am speaking evil or untruth.
You give me link to the Real Live Preacher. The man who says that scripture is so deficient God wants us to make up stories to fill in the gaps?
The Word is a weapon to the enemies of God and it is a surgical instrument to the Church.
I have heard the incredibly bad exegesis of Hebrews 4 that Jesus is the Word of God spoken of there. Sorry the NT only mentions Jesus as the word twice, John 1 and Rev 19., all other passages mean a literal Word. Real live preacher is pathetic. This is what happens when our emotions guide our walk. Who cares about sound scriptural exposition. How do you feel about it?? This is why our schools are screwed up. Same method of educating. Also I am well aware that Wanderer is free to comment. I have never said otherwise. I am simply pointing out that we are not even in the same theological universe.
Wanderer it is actually you who smack of a self righteous attitude.
All of our actions are known by God, so wory about yourself. How many "repentant sinners" show up at your gathering, btw ?
What we have is a good example of the philosophy that if one disagrees with another, or tells his kids NO when they want to play in traffic, well then he is obviously an abusive monster. Liberalism and relativism are a disease.
Yes I do teach, and I lsten to a great many who are ABLE to teach. Teaching is a gift from the Holy Spirit, not something that is bestowed with a diploma.
Is it my duty to correct you? Well, probably not. But
you sure seem to think that everyone is in need of
your correction. Can't I do the same every once and a
while? And the scripture applies for careless words as
well as evils and untruths. Sometimes truth can be
spoken without love, which is not what Jesus
commanded.
The recommendation was for the article, not for
everything the fellow writes and believes.
Unfortunately, the point of the article seems to have
passed you by. And there are several places in the
Bible where non-believers teach believers things -
Abraham comes to mind.
"I have heard the incredibly bad exegesis of Hebrews 4
that Jesus is the Word of God spoken of there. Sorry
the NT only mentions Jesus as the word twice, John 1
and Rev 19., all other passages mean a literal Word."
-Why?
I happen to care a great deal about sound exposition.
I'll share some more with you if you like.
"Real live preacher is pathetic." Err, ok. Try Matthew
5:22 - "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with
his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone
who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the
Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in
danger of the fire of hell." Sure "fool" and
"pathetic" are slightly different, but still...
Chris, this isn't personal. I just want to bring some
moderation to this conversation. I don't seek you out
on your blog or elsewhere. Maryellen is a fine person
and christian from the little I know of her. I would
stand in your defense if someone was assulting you the
way you are her.
Chris, do you really expect ME to be a tattle tale. You know brother, those creatures sitting in the pew are after all human beings. I said it was non-malicous and very minimal. I just listen. and I don't name names.
As far as talking about church business here, since this is my formum for self expression, and for the past 26 years, my "church" experience, my relationship with brothers and sisters in the LORD, my life as a Christian, my LORD, has been the hub and rim of who I am, I can't quite seperate myself from this. I did want to make it personal, felt I had to, didn't want to discuss it here, or on yours, the statement that was made on your blog a few weeks ago about people who believe as I do are of the enemy or working for the enemy really pierced my heart. Not because I felt convicted or believed it to be true, but because one of my pastors thought it, one of my pastors whose opinion i respect and whose authority i submitted to when i joined the church. You knew full well when you made that statement that Pastor Art and I read your blogs, just as I know you read mine. You could have answered my personal email, or talked to me after church or stopped by for coffee like you used to. you chose this forum to continue to proclaim your version of the truth and discredit any un-named persons who choose to view it differently. Ugg and sigh!
guys, I'm ok. Even in the deep freeze, without my anti-depressent and without my grandkids. I'm OK. Thanks for the words of encouragement and love. God is LOVE! Yep, HE is!
Jason - Perhaps she's "avoiding" your question because she's in the middle of writing a research paper to address Chris' concerns. Get in line.
Oh, jason...
no, it wasn't a challenging question...Grey Owl was correct in why I hadn't answered it...
in a nut shell, Paul was saying to the Gentile converts they didn't have to be circumsied...but ofcourse that is just a small part of the message of that letter.
You never see us atheists arguing atheistic dogma like this.. ;)
Jason, if you want to know what Pastor Art thinks about these things, go visit his site.
M.C. could you hear me say, with just a hint of humor in my voice, OH NO, when I saw that you had visited.
It's not Monday Morning anymore, it is Saturday Morning, and I have a lot of stuff to do. Blessings on you all, yep, even on you Pagans, Atheists, and Fanatics. There is ONE WAY, and that WAY is a person.
There is only ONE TRUTH, and that TRUTH is a person. And that person is very God and very Man, and I am having a Birthday Party for Him, so there...
That was the point of the joke, Jason.
Yeah MaryEllen, I could hear that :) Don't worry, I visited Grey owl too and the thing I said there applies here.. I know my shenanigans have a place, and that place is Life or Something, not here.
"Who are you having conversations with? I hear no gossip or back biting"
I try to be polite for MaryEllen's sake, but Chris, you are a jackass. READ WHAT I WRITE and maybe you won't ask such stupid questions. I have already stated I am not referring to your church. I don't care about your church in the context of this conversation.
I am referring to here. Right here on this blog and the other one's you poison with what you think is an example of superior intellect. I say you are venomous here. I don't reference what happens in shiprock.
"The blog world is separate from our church."
Read back. Did I or did I not predict this response? Not only predict it but refute it. Go back and read.
"What we have is a good example of the philosophy that if one disagrees with another, or tells his kids NO when they want to play in traffic, well then he is obviously an abusive monster."
This is not even close to a metaphor of what you are doing. What we have here is a parent who tells their child that if they speak without being spoken to they get dismembered with a chainsaw.
You are not God. You do not speak for God. You speak as a man who wants to be seen as godly. You don't answer the points of discussion. You just laud yourself as speaking from God's point of view. You are also eerily predictable. The only thing you haven't done recently is tell me that your wife supports you. You used to do that all the time. Come on. Add it to your next inane post.
Lets boil this down. MaryEllen worships the same God as you. (And you Jason.) You should be on her side, not trying to tear her to pieces. The more so because you live in the same town.
I am not going to attack your doctrine, being a minister of a different faith. I will make this clear though. If you try and tear her down, I will attack your methods, and I am not going away.
Jesus preached of us being a family in God, through him. Those of you who claim to believe, join in as a family. If you simply want to prove yourself superior and attack those in trouble as this self righteous, apparent sole keyholder to heaven is doing, do it somewhere else. If you are truly a follower of Jesus as many of you claim, pick up your bibles and see if it tells you to take this man's side in destroying an innocent for ego or to take her side and say that even if she is not completely right, she deserves your love.
I might get kicked for saying so, Chris, but I for one am sick of your crap. Back off.
now, that's alittle harsh Wanderer.
but i appreciate the fact that you are standing up for me.
i've said it before and i need to say it again. for many years i considered Chris to be a friend. i don't understand the whole dynamics of what is going on right now, or how to reconcile it with the outside world of our wonderful church. but although he frustrates me i am not really angry at him. or jason for that matter, who i do not know personally. Anyone has the right to say anything they want on my blog...except that i did delete that anti semetic statement that someone made a few months back. and it is my right to delete what ever i choose. I also once deleted a comment that said i was going to hell because i didn't read the KJV of the Bible.
by the way, my project is over 1000 pages already and i'm not even out of Genesis.
I understand that you consider him a friend, MaryEllen, and I obviously wouldn't want to interfere with a friendship. Still, look at my blog and the ease at times with which hostility comes from MC, and look comparatively to how he treats me on the blog. The same as how he treats me in real life. With respect. An extension of this respect was illustrated when he came here and posted on your blog. Respect because he respects me and you are my friend.
There is no respect that I have seen in recent interactions between you two out here. Not from him.
Loyalty is a big thing amongst my set. It doesn't come easily for me to stand by and let even a supposed friend try and beat down or tear away at one of my friends. One can only go so far alone, and so I stand with you. Still, out of that same respect, merely say the word, and I will be silent on this matter.
crazy me, i said 1000 pages, i meant 1000 words, even I couldn't write that much, unless ofcourse I just copied the Bible and let it speak for it's self!
Ah, respect and loyalty...what fine Character Traits to cultivate in ones life...
Think of JESUS, he had 11 loyal, and 1 unloyal...well actually, when it got to the cross, it was more like one loyal and 11 runaways. Over the past few years my family has encountered many "believers" who turned on us, or at the very least turned away from us. And the enemy, the prince of darkness if you will, tried very hard to convince me that Jesus himself had turned His back on me. If this pain was preordained, not a result of sin and wrong choices and rebellion, but rather the unfolding of God's perfect plan...and If God never forsakes his elect and I had been forsaken...then logically...
let's just say, as I'd said before, I came very close to just giving up. But instead, the HOLY SPIRIT led me back into the WORD, and I rediscovered the God of Love, of Light in whom there is no darkness.
Anyone who is following this thread, must realize by now that Wanderer knows the Bible as well as most Christians. And if you missed the beginning of our blog relationship, I told him that when I was his age I was where he was spiritually speaking...so, although I don't want to scare him away (I don't think he scares easily), I have to say, I hold out hope for him, and his buddy M.C. too. Any well read Christian will agree with me that it takes a lot of faith not to believe in anything.
"so, although I don't want to scare him away (I don't think he scares easily), I have to say, I hold out hope for him,"
Why would this scare me away? There are many who are holding onto the same hope. Besides, I have no fear in regards to where my journey might lead me, even if it is not as I expected.
I have understood for a while that you see parrallels between myself and your journey. As such I realize the hope that I might continue to where you are. Where you are now anyway, since yours also continues. I don't expect your faith grows stagnant waiting for me. This is not my expectation, but that doesn't make the statement something to scare me away with.
"Any well-read Christian" is still a Christian and thus has already demonstrated a learning disability by being such. Hence, when I hear such wild libel against not only myself but all other atheists, and by extension those Pagan idiots who get lumped in with us all the time because Christians call ridiculous gods close enough to no gods, I must respond, to satisfy my anger if nothing else.
There is no faith to not believe fairy tales. Faith is the assumption that what someone told you is true. Faith is the assumption that what you've convinced yourself of must be true. Atheism is the exact opposite. Atheism is the refusal to believe without proof. The refusal to take someone's word for it against your better judgment. The refusal to be dragged down by the gullible masses around you.
When you accuse me of having faith, you undermine the difference between me and grown men and women who still believe in Santa Claus. You deride my intelligence, and I find myself extremely angry with the accuser. Make of that what you will. I've learned my lesson for venturing to where I know I don't belong.
And furthermore it's just Mc, pronounced like "Mick".. not really important, just clarifying for several people's benefit.
yeah, mc
i read your take on faith on the other site, the whole santa claus tooth fairy debate, so one of my all time favorite movies is the santa clause, and today i remember hearing a little kid asking a sunday school teacher - who was taking prayer requests - to pray that santa would have a safe trip...never let my kids believe in santa by the way. my favorite santa stories are #1 the time ardy came home from school and asked me if i knew what he was going to ask santa for this year...we didn't "do" santa and I said to him "I beg your pardon", he smiled a sweet 6 year old smile and said "yeah I know...but i thought it was worth a try"
#2. we were at an after church coffee hour and a little boy was staring at my hubby. he's a big, bearded, grizzly adam's type. the kid asked his daddy in a not so quiet voice "is that Santa Claus" the embarrassed dad apologized and claimed they didn't even "do" santa, and then told his son, of course that's not santa claus, to which the little guy replied "Well he will be when he grows up"...
this really has nothing to do with anything, just thought i'd lighten things up a little.
by the way mc, i'm not learning disabled, i only work with the learning disabled...
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