From My Best Friend Bobbie
I don't know who wrote the following, it was forwarded to me by my "bestest" friend in the whole world. Thanks Bobbie.
It sort of goes along with the comment thread that exists in my post about prayer (the second one down I think).
I thought this was as good an explaination as any of why we can say - God Is, God Is love, Evil Exisits. It is atleast the best I've heard in a long time...
Did God Create Evil?
The university professor challenged his students with this question: "Did God create everything that exists? "
A student bravely replied "Yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" the professor asked.
"Yes sir," the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil." The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said,
"Can I ask you a question professor?"
"Can I ask you a question professor?"
"Of course," replied the professor.
The student stood up and asked, "Professor does cold exist?"
The professor replied "Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"
The students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist.
According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.
According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat.
The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does."
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct?
Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
28 comments:
wow! this is very interesting!!!
A better way than I have always described it. When I tell people that nothing is inherently evil they tend to turn their ears off. Apply this now to your earlier concerns, MaryEllen, in regards to God never abandoning his elect. The absence of God is evil. You have had some hard times, but is there any point in which you could have labeled yourself evil? If not, then can you possibly have been abandoned?
There was something written down about footprints once, wasn't there?
I would like to link to this over at my blog as a point of reference only, not to quote anyone. May God have mercy. :-)
One quick thing.
Did you know that Einstein did not believe in "free will"?
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/credo.html
He was a scientist, not a theologian. While I didn't know that, I am not surprised.
he was a Jew too, he didn't believe in Jesus either...but his take on good and evil is still interesting, don't you think?
Interesting!
Eisntein would be considered a deist. he didn't believe in the God of Israel either. He was also not a very good husband and father and virtually ignored anybody who wasn't a part of his quest.
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/religion3.html
He was also a pretty darn good physicist. I don't think it's necessary to dwell on the negatives, is it? He was human. 'nuff said.
Grey Owl - "I don't think it's necessary to dwell on the negatives, is it? He was human. 'nuff said."
The first and second sentence kind of contradict each other, don't they?
Actually, I was trying to get across that he was human just like the rest of us, which carries with it good and bad. What I meant was: I'm sure we could list unsavoury things about anyone, including ourselves. Why bother? Do we need to do that to discredit them somehow? Just a thought. I really enjoyed the story, even if it isn't true.
months back I read and commented on the question of some sort of divine paradox...the inability to reconcile the following statements:
God is Good. God is all powerful. Evil exists. Something like that.
For those of you who believe that the Sovereignty of God means He knows and predetermines which human being is saved and which is damned before time began, and yet allows the damned one existance, only to be born for hell, and to make life miserable for those predestined for heaven...it is impossible to reconcile those statements without admitting that God indeed created evil and wills evil to happen. That sort of negates the Good (and loving) trait of God. Unless we redefine good and loving. I rather redefine all-knowing, that He knows the potential and the destiny of each human being, and is actively involved in the life of each human being, as a guide, as a good father, as a loving parent...but does not know, until the moment of decision what decision that human will make. That He knows the possible outcomes of every possible choice, that sort of gets into a kind of quantum physics - alternate universes type of thinking...He chose to create a being that could love HIM freely, a being with a free will. And He chose to interact with that being. He went to great extreams to reveal Himself and provide possiblities beyond our understanding...He gave that being a freewill. Evil exists because Human beings have chosen to turn their backs on their creator. Time for another post...
For once, I have to agree with Wanderer re: Grey Owl's comment.
As for Grey Owl, should we care if the story is a fabrication? Why not? This is evidence of all that is wrong with modern and post-modern christianity, the "warm-fuzzies factor", that is relativism/subjectivism.
Maryellen,
We do not need to re-define loving and good, we must simply drop our ideas of what that is, and actually go with God's definition. The God who annihilated entire tribes, and even His own people. According to the Scriptures ,the Father, Son and Spirit, were there doing this together.
In the link I provided about Einsteins free will philosophy, I would say that in this idea alone, he was nearer to the Truth than most christians. Outside of this, Einstein was a godless man. Who cares what a great mind he had. God uses the foolish to congound the wise. The fruit of the tree that Adam and Eve ate from "was able to make one wise."
He said, "man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills." Amen. Compare that to Romans chapter 7.
God is the only being who actually has what could be called, free-will.
Finally compare Genesis 3:4-5 with Genesis 3:22.
God already knew good and evil, however that knowledge was not meant for man. The sin of the garden was not disobedience, that was the fruit (action) of the sin. The sin was the same sin as Lucifier's, i.e. the desire to be god.
Satan did not lie to the woman, he did something far more insidious, he used the truth to deceive her. Let's all think about that.
God is God, and nowhere are we instructed to defend Him or His actions. Peter said give a defense for what you believe, not try and explain God and His love and/or apparent lack of it. Sovreignty, sovreignty, sovreignty.
Maryellen - I don't think that open theism makes you a "bad christian", if that's indeed what you believe. Although I myself have reservations about it, I know of several christians more intelligent than I who subscribe to it, so I don't think it'd be appropriate to comment on it further until I get a better handle on it.
re: the authenticity of the story - Chrisp, please read my comment before you respond to it. Just a thought. I just said I enjoyed it. I do think it sounds like an apocryphal account that often springs up surrounding famous people after their deaths - Isaac Newton and the apple hitting him on the head for instance. That being said, there is still something we can take from it even if it never happened or happened to someone else.
Grey Owl - "Chrisp, please read my comment before you respond to it. Just a thought." Don't count on it.
MaryEllen - For once I have to take the chance and step outside of the "safe zone" of my understanding of your beliefs and speak purely from mine. God is ALL. As such, what makes you think to label good and evil? All is within God. So much theological and spirituality is derived from an inability to recognize that God is dark as frequently as He is light.
(See, apparently I lie. Even as I say I am straight forward, I put it in your terms. Let me straighten it out for my own honor's sake.) God is light. The Goddess is dark. Both help us, both hurt us. Why? Because our successes and our failures are for the sake of our Deity's plan. We wouldn't worry so much about evil lurking around every corner if we recognized the true scope of the Deity.
Sorry Wanderer,
I did read Grey Owl's comment, which is why I responded the way I did. Actually I read and respond to all "comments", not the personalities behind them, which unfortunately most do, that is all who worry about my tone, rather than what I actually say. Why attribute an apocryphal story to einstein if he really didn't say or do what is related? It still proves the point. Stick to the substance.
That aside, Wanderer isn't too far off from hitting it on the head. Just dump the goddess. Everything that has existed, is existing, and will exist, is contained in Yahweh, the one true God.
The fact that he sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to reconcile this through is an admission thatb he is assuming responsibility.
jason, whereas, after studying open theism for a season, i determined that i do not actually fall into that category, i do not agree that contending that since it was God's decision to give us a free will, believing that He does not know what choice we make until we make it is in, as you claim, direct opposition to scripture...
Chris, how can you say:
God already knew good and evil, however that knowledge was not meant for man.??? If God predestined this whole confusing universe and every action in it, then the knowledge of good and evil was indeed meant for man...since everything evolves exactly as God preordained...
Wanderer - I fear no evil. Lurking or blatant. I am surprised to hear you say (admit?) that the goddess is darkness. We're back to the yin yang from the previous post aren't we?
As far as what started this whole discussion...I bet Bobbie would be surprised at what a conversation her little email started.
Time to start dinner. Blessings all.
Chris, how can you say:
God already knew good and evil, however that knowledge was not meant for man.??? If God predestined this whole confusing universe and every action in it, then the knowledge of good and evil was indeed meant for man...since everything evolves exactly as God preordained...
Everything happens as God "allows". He has allowed man to eat of the fruit, as the end of all things is that God is God, and man is not. The real purpose of the existence of all things is that God gets the Glory. All things must be shown for what they are. Man must be shown for who he is, and he is not God, nor is he capable of being God. What's the best way of showing that? Let him become a god unto himself, by eating the forbidden fruit.
When we get out of the idea that God exists for us, then we will be on the right track. He didn't save us so that we could fulfill our destinies, and find ourselves, and go to heaven.
He is determined to be worshipped and glorified, and He will be. Who is going to argue with Him?
Who is the creator, and who is the creation will be a settled issue for all eternity. Could be why Paul called the woes of this life, momentary, light afflictions.
Soli Deo Gloria, at least the Reformers had that right.
Chris - I don't really expect any of you to be in agreement with me, but I have gone to great lengths to keep from being offensive on this blog and those like it by generally terming my position based on the background of your faith, not mine. As such, you will never hear me say "If you just dump Jesus." There were many ways you could say what you did without saying, "Just dump the Goddess." Do you try to be rude, or is it just a frequent accident. I think I know the direction your response will come from, so I will say this. Jesus never instructed anyone to be disrespectful (as clarification I mean disrespect to me, not a silly argument about the gender of God), you can stick to the truth without being so blatantly, and I assume intentionally, insulting.
MaryEllen - You are surprised to hear me say that the Goddess is darkness? She is. As referenced in the Yin Yang conversation, this doesn't make her evil. It simply makes her what she is. I had thought to go further in my explanation, but it occurs that this might not be the place. It is late tonight, but perhaps tomorrow I will put my thoughts together and post in more detail on mine, where the Pagan side more fittingly belongs. No purpose would be served in expounding on it here where it is undoubtedly unwelcome.
Chrisp - sorry, I guess I just assumed from your response that you hadn't read the comment I left. That's my fault, and I apologize. I guess I'd rather assume you didn't read it than that you're bad at reading/thinking. BUt in respone to your question: people often attribute stories to famous persons after their deaths (or before in some cases) to add validity to the story, or to try and prove a point. Or people sometimes tell stories that aren't true in order to make some kind of statement or lesson. Like Jesus and the parables. Ever tell your kids about "The boy who cried wolf?" I'm also not sure why you keep saying, "That proves my point" or "You just proved my point," which I've often seen you say when you disagree with someone. It's a little odd, to be honest with you.
Wanderer - I think I see your point. Sort of a destiny thing? Like don't worry because it's all part of the plan? I think I'm there with you, albeit with a different concept of the God in question.
Maryellen - I'm not sure how you're thinkning about open theism, because what you describe to me sounds quite a bit like it. Think you'd care to expand on your definition of open theism? (or at least direct me to the appropriate previous post)
Grey Owl - A slight clarification, because it isn't really a destiny thing. More of an issue of redundant systems. Does God have a plan for you? Yes. Is any part of this plan involve you as the only person who can, or has been tasked with, accomplishing it? No. You make your own choices, God will keep reacting and interacting. In the end, who holds the trump? The question, then, is if God has others to complete the task if you don't, why take it up for yourself. Simple. Think of who you would be letting down. For any Star Wars fans out there, this is why you let the Wookie win.
Will God tear my arms off? ;)
Grey Owl - Probably not, but given stories of people being swallowed by whales, it might still be a good idea to let the all-powerful one win the argument. :)
Grey Owl - By the way, I haven't laughed so hard in a while as I did when I read, "Will God tear my arms off?" I know I incited the comment, but it was really funny anyway.
There's all kinds of humerous images running through my mind that have to do with God, wookies, and various combinations of the two. I think I'll leave them up to your imagination!
Grey Owl - That could be dangerous. My imagination can be a really surreal place.
Just as a "by the way" sort of comment, the story in the post is judged to be an urban legend:
Snopes.com
TruthOrFiction.com
Regards,
Rich
BlogRodent
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